| Author | Message | ||
     Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 45 Registered: 04-2009 |
Personal idol Robert Christgau, at 68 surely nearing the end of his critical career, has just published the "best of decade" ballot he submitted to (the US) Rolling Stone, thus functioning as his own retrospective list. 14. Wussy: Left for Dead (Shake It '07) 15. The Go-Betweens: The Friends of Rachel Worth (Jetset '00) 16. Gogol Bordello: Gypsy Punks: Underdog World Strike (Side One Dummy '05) http://robertchristgau.com/xg/list/rs00. php Christgau has always been an advocate of Rachel Worth, writing a long, loving article about it when it came out: http://robertchristgau.com/xg/rock/gobet wee-00.php Oceans Apart also managed number five on his '05 "Dean's List", and The Evangelist number sixteen last year. Rachel Worth missed the top ten on his '00 but appears to have been warmed up to. Obviously, this isn't very interesting in a lot of normal, objective ways, but Christgau is one of the few surviving (talent-wise) paragons of early rockcrit's Old Wave, which holds some significance, particularly considering how smoothly (in my opinion) he's adapted to the changing of various stylistic guards. I far prefer him to the overly florid prose and unprogressive tastes of Greil Marcus, and in much of my experience it's difficult to disagree with a good most of his judgments. But to each their own. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1840 Registered: 10-2004 |
FoRW wouldn't even make *my* top '00s list, and the Go-Betweens are one of my very favorite bands. Was it Christgau who wrote some slightly disparaging things about Robert's last album while kind of implying a preference for Grant? Or am I mixing him up with someone else? | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1732 Registered: 09-2006 |
Yes, he was the one, Jeff, and it was more than an implication. Though a slightly curious thing happened following that review - he capsule-reviewed it in two other places, and each time that Robert-was-the-lesser stance softened a bit more, and he ended up liking the album even more than he originally did. And I'd agree with LK's assessment of Xgau, right down to the thoughts on Marcus (who can throw around some very intriguing ideas on the surface of his writing but very often comes up short when one tries to dig any deeper). FoRW would make my top 5, I think, if I were making a list...it's definitely my favorite Go-Bees Mach II album. Also nice to see Wussy making such a strong showing on Xgau's list. | ||
| Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 46 Registered: 04-2009 |
I think he implied a preference for Grant based on his reviews of their solo albums and Intermission, but the only GBs-related album he wasn't fond of was In Your Bright Ray, and he was tremendously complimentary of The Evangelist. I have noticed a sort of disappointment with FoRW on this board, though I've never tried to investigate it. It's a very subtle, muted, sometimes unambitious record. But I definitely don't get the resistance to "Surfing Magazines" and "German Farmhouse", "Spirit" and "Magic In Here" are among their best, and "She Sang About Angels" pales only marginally to the '96 radio version. I'm no fan of "Orpheus Beach" but the whole record very appealingly and rewardingly sinks into the consciousness over time. They're all well-written songs. BYBO is the inconsequential GBs album. | ||
| Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 47 Registered: 04-2009 |
Wussy are indeed terrific, Allen. And I swear I'm not LK. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1733 Registered: 09-2006 |
Those implications were there in the reviews you mention, but in his very first review of The Evangelist" he quite explictly stated that he thought Robert was the less-talented of the two, a line which (quite rightly, given that it was worded rather like he was saying it was fact, not opinion) brought about a few angry rebuttals from folks here on the board. | ||
| Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 48 Registered: 04-2009 |
You're right, and I actually just discovered that particular instance on the NPR website shortly after reading your post. I had never read that particular article. And though it might be clarified that the actual quote "lesser" differs slightly from the term "less-talented", it's definitely a position that merits contest (and with which I don't personally agree; the smarter and more careful writer beats the superior tunesmith in my critical POV if not pleasure-center). Anyway, Christgau's arrogance regarding his own studied opinions is well known as the principal grain of salt with which one takes his talents. The self-proclaimed Dean rarely makes unqualified concessions of erroneous judgment, almost never acknowledges his fans and doesn't exactly read like the kind of guy you'd want to share a pizza with. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1841 Registered: 10-2004 |
Allen, I think I was responsible for one of those "angry rebuttals"! And as to this point: "following that review - he capsule-reviewed it in two other places, and each time that Robert-was-the-lesser stance softened a bit more, and he ended up liking the album even more than he originally did" I would say that this is one reason why I sometimes have difficulty trusting music journalists. Too often it seems they make quick judgments based on what couldn't be more than a few listens, and I think one really needs to live with an album for a little while before offering a definitive opinion about it. I mean, how often have we bought albums that grew on us after those first few listens? Or conversely, those albums that wind up sucking after a couple of plays. But, obviously, we can't expect journalists to take their sweet time since music publications want to be the first to feature reviews of something new. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1842 Registered: 10-2004 |
Victor, I think if you took a poll you'd find people here are probably somewhat split in their views on FoRW, with a slant in favor of those who like it. Personally, I think it's the worst album of their entire career together. I liked it okay the first few listens, but with each subsequent listen I liked it less and less. Every year I give it a spin just to see if I still feel the same, and each time I hate it even more! I've written in numerous places here over the years why I dislike it. Mainly I think that compositionally the songwriting is quite weak and that overall it sounds like they just weren't trying very hard. There's almost something kind of tentative or cautious about it. And I should state that it's really the only album of theirs that I dislike. (I'm lukewarm about BYBO). But that's just my opinion. I know plenty of people who really dig it. OA is the only mach II era album that I truly love, despite its heinously and inappropriately LOUD mastering. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2225 Registered: 03-2005 |
I also bristled at the "lesser half" comment Xgau made about Robert. I'm afraid he got it exactly wrong if we had to go through such an awful exercise. "Rachel Worth" has some wonderful things on it but the weak songs seem exceptionally weak and--dare I say it?--they're mostly Grant's. To my ears it sounds like a tentative album with a set of songs that Robert and Grant had written as solo artists that don't quite gel together. I also think the absence of Glenn is a serious handicap; there isn't quite a band feel there. BYBO has gorgeous sound but some lazy songwriting and infrequent arrangement ideas. However, it DOES sound like it was done by a band. I agree that Oceans Apart is the first one on which the Mk II band had truly hit its stride with Robert and Grant again writing as members of the Go Betweens and it sounds like they'd been working on the material before they showed up at the studio. There was definitely supposed to be at least one more. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1735 Registered: 09-2006 |
Just wanted to add that IMO Christgau has much more in his plus column than his minus regarding the GBs...despite his occasional impulse towards making a "definitive" statement, he's written many good and thoughtful words about the group, and it was he who first turned me on to them. | ||
| Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 49 Registered: 04-2009 |
Randy, anybody who disagrees with you that Grant is the weak songwriting link on FoRW hasn't heard the album. Robert's songs are the fully-formed keepers (and I do hear them as fully-formed, despite a few Grant-esque lyrical touches), whereas none of Grant's songs (I like "The Clock" and "Magic In Here" but can't pretend they're brilliant, though I singled out the latter above) sound like the work of a man who's putting his full effort forth. I always wondered if something happened to Grant between Bright Ray and Rachel Worth that kept him silent and sounding so tentative on these songs. He sounds timid and hurt, though "Goin' Blind" still has a discernible vibrant edge (and is over in like two minutes). However, what strikes me about BYBO is that the effects of both songwriters' contributions are reversed. I see "Caroline and I", "Something For Myself" and especially "Make Her Day" and "In Her Diary" as remarkably generic and ineffectual Robert songs. Some of Grant's err in that direction but "Old Mexico" and "Mrs. Morgan" are, for me, his liveliest and most personality-infused later triumphs (I love OA but he sounds like a ghost already to me). "Poison in the Walls" is fun and "Crooked Lines" is lovely - so basically, BYBO is almost Grant's record in the same way that FoRW is entirely Robert's. | ||
| Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 50 Registered: 04-2009 |
Oh, and to finish up this Christgau thread, he's no hater of the Go-Betweens at all. Even in the NPR thing his expression of Grant preference is hesitant. 1978-1990 shot from somewhere in the 30s on his end-of-year list to his published guide's choice for 2nd best album of 1990. He drops loving, fanboyish references to the GBs in highly positive writeups of An Horse and Luna. And this makes his stance pretty clear-cut: Spring Hill Fair [Beggars Banquet, 1996] In the Indian summer of a formal moment, singer-songwriter-guitarists Robert Forster and Grant McLennan joined a shifting lineup headed by steadfast drummer-inamorata Lindy Morrison and mercurial violinist-inamorata Amanda Brown to fashion as deep and intricate and prematurely mature a body of traditional relationship songs as, oh, Joni Mitchell herself, who should only have accessed half their empathy and synergy. Hiding their hooks in arrangements and lyrics as often as they brandished them in tunes, they were modest, affectionate, funny, cheerful, never too oblique or ironic--pop for the ages if anything is. But with the 1978-1990 compilation now import-only, novice songseekers are confronted instead by a remastered, reannotated six-album oeuvre. So acquire them all, I guess, thusly: Tallulah (1987, Amanda and "Right Here"), Spring Hill Fair (1984, produced yet rough), Before Hollywood (1983, austere yet gorgeous), 16 Lovers Lane (1988, poppest), Liberty Belle and the Black Diamond Express (1986, talkiest), Send Me a Lullaby (1981, punkest). Accounted too damn subtle for a U.S. market whose favorite Aussies were MTV flukes and whose favorite Brits had surrealistic haircuts, these Brisbane-bred Londoners' first three albums were never accorded the decency of official U.S. release. This is my paltry attempt to extend a nation's apology. A That's exactly how reverent I feel, so. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2226 Registered: 03-2005 |
I agree with you Victor, except that I rate "Something For Myself" as quite good and "In Her Diary" as sufficiently good. I was highly annoyed with Robert's failure to actually make the lyrics in "Caroline & I" tell any of the story he attributes to it. And the intro? Ok, enough of that. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1846 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yeah, I've always felt that Grant really nailed it on BYBO. His contributions to that album are not merely stronger than Robert's, but uniformly strong in general. Old Mexico, in particular, is a classic. To me it sounds like Robert may have had a little trouble filling his 5-song quota for that album. (But then OA saw Robert positively exploding with great ideas). With FoRW, the only song I actually like is Grant's Magic in Here, and I don't think it's a particularly strong song in the grand scheme of things. I do agree that Robert's FoRW songs tend to sound more fully formed overall, but I don't think any of them stand up to his best work, either with Grant or solo. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1847 Registered: 10-2004 |
As for Christgau - yes, it's clear that he's always been an avid supporter. It's just interesting how much the anti-Robert sentiments in his Evangelist review really rubbed a lot of us the wrong way. If it'd just been some nobody at Pitchfork who said that, then he'd be easily dismissed as a moron. But when Christgau says it, it's almost like a personal insult! | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 229 Registered: 02-2005 |
There are lots of interesting opinions and insights here. I know that Xgau is a Go-Betweens booster, but I’m not sure he was from the beginning. In the years I worked at Maxwell’s we’d jump on the Village Voice each Wednesday to see if he’d tipped a Maxwell’s gig in the weekly Voice Choices. They carried a lot of weight in the early-80’s… any gig that was given a Voice Choice was sure to attract a good crowd. I am fairly certain he did NOT pick the Go-Betweens early gigs at Maxwell’s and CBGB and I don’t think he even gave them the nod when they headlined at The Ritz after Tallulah. I could be wrong about that, but I remember thinking he was a bit of a late-comer to the G-B’s party during the 80’s. As a critic, he will revisit his own opinions and revise them if an album grows in his critical estimation. His Consumer Guide has a number of albums with “original grade” and “revised grade” indicated. The Go-Betweens have clearly grown in his estimation through the years. On a personal level, he’s an odd duck. I don’t know the man, but he used to come to Maxwell’s on occasion; we had a couple of short exchanges and he apparently liked my deejaying. When he took a leave of absence from The Voice some 20-years ago (to edit a hardbound Consumer Guide) his wife tracked me down and asked if I’d be on the team of deejays at his “retirement” party at CBGB. I was spinning records when he came in and he rushed over to me and blurted, “She remembered! She remembered!” He was obviously happy to see me, but there was no regular-guy stuff like, “thanks for coming” or a mock-insult like, “I’m glad to see you. Your taste in music is almost as good as mine!” He expected me to read his mind. It was amusing, but weird. When I see him at gigs I always nod “hello” and I know he recognizes me, but he will rarely acknowledge me in return. He is “working” you understand. On the other hand, when he came to the Grant tribute that Robert Vickers organized a couple years ago he was sociable and hung around at Hi-Fi for a while. He may live nearby on the Lower East Side, but the weather that night was absolutely horrid – a blizzard of sleet and snow. Walking two blocks was a challenge. There was no pizza, but we were all drinking beer and he was more-or-less a “regular guy” that night. | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 230 Registered: 02-2005 |
Oh... and as a music critic he is also (as close as I get to) a personal idol. He has excellent ears and I've been "turned on" to more music by The Dean than I have by every other rockcrit combined. | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 231 Registered: 02-2005 |
One last comment... Christgau rarely reviewed import albums. The first Go-Betweens release in the US was Metal And Shells - the compilation on PVC that culled tracks from Before Hollywood and Spring Hill Fair. That's probably the first G-B's album he would have reviewed. | ||
| Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 53 Registered: 04-2009 |
He actually reviewed Before Hollywood as an import in '83, and it had very clearly grown on him by the review above - he had originally given it a B+ ("as poetry reading goes, quite kinetic"). And by the way, since there were no ripostes, your comments above were beautifully enlightening. | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 232 Registered: 02-2005 |
I was actually talking with a friend over the weekend about Christgau's support of the group (following my post above). I don't remember him reviewing Before Hollywood, although that's where I came in as a fan. My friend reminded me that Christgau was very tight with his Voice Choices and wouldn't pick a band simply because he liked their records. And he would rarely (if ever) give a pick to a band he'd never seen live. He rightfully saw the stage as a separate entity from the recording studio so The Go-Betweens weren't going to get his immediate unqualified support. I love remembering those days, but I also recall a degree of frustration. It was several years before he gave a Voice Choice to The Feelies and when he finally did they were immediately headlining at Irving Plaza and got signed to Stiff (well, that's the way I remember it anyway, 30-years of brain-muddling later). I'm not complaining exactly... I got to see them in near-empty clubs for a couple years before their star began to rise, but you know how it is when you're rooting for a band; you want them to put out a record and move their career along. I know that other critics who've worked under Christgau as their editor have immense respect for the man. He was a dedicated gig rat for decades - probably still is - so I saw him often and shared tables with him a couple times at CBGB. But he was never a "scene" guy and fastidiously avoided socializing for a). professional reasons and b). because he's probably just not much of a social animal. |