| Author | Message | ||
     kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 347 Registered: 05-2005 |
REM - Automatic for the people David Bowie - Lets Dance Talking Heads - Little Creatures New Order - Get Ready Elvis Costello - Goodbye Cruel World | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 287 Registered: 04-2005 |
Bowie - Let's Dance (nailed it, Kevin) Rolling Stones - Goats Head Soup Bryan Ferry - Boys and Girls The Kinks - Everybody's In Showbiz Stereolab - Dots and Loops Pavement - Terror Twilight The Who - Who Are You Neil Young - Are You Passionate? (though he's jumped the shark MANY times and then come back) XTC - Nonsuch Ian Hunter - Short Back 'n Sides The Clash - Combat Rock Ramones - End of the Century The list could go on and on... | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 332 Registered: 03-2005 |
What does "jumping the shark" mean? Judging from the lists I gather it has something to do with making a piece of crap. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 350 Registered: 05-2005 |
I asked the same question Randy, the phrase came up in the REM thread. Hardin came up with the answer. "What does "jumped the shark" mean? Is it a Robert Johnson meeting the devil at the crossroads type of thing? " "Sorry, Kev - it's probably exclusively an Americanism...somebody coined it to describe the moment a TV show goes irretrievably into the crapper...it comes from an episode of Happy Days (was that played over there?), where the Fonz jumps over a shark, while waterskiing. From that (ridiculous) point on, the opinion is, Happy Days sucked." | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 324 Registered: 03-2006 |
CAN you jump the shark and come back? We get to make the rules.... Cuz, if so, the Stones have probably jumped it too many times to count. My worst instance of it for them would be Black and Blue, where they take a stab at disco, with the wretched "Hot Stuff"... And, I don't agree 100% with all your choices, Kurt, but I definitely do about "Are You Passionate?"...whooo...what the f___ was he thinkin'? And, my favorite case of Neil jumpin' that shark is "Trans". Whoa doggies, what a piece o' doo-doo. BTW, if you wanna laugh, there's a decent Neil live DVD, "In Berlin", that also unfortunately, includes some live performances of songs from said disc, including "Transformer Man". In it, Neil and Nils Lofgren do what can only be described as interpretive dance performances...they both prance around, wearing those dorky headsets...Nils, in particular, comes off badly. He's about half Neil's height, so that comparison is not so flattering, and he's also wearing what seem to be cast-offs from some high school production of "Fame"...the effect he achieves is nothing so much as a particularly frisky, possibly injured, wood sprite...He should use his connections with the mega-powerful Boss and get all copies on Earth destroyed... Kevin, in the liner notes for the deluxe "Cruel World", Elvis sez, "congratulations! You've just purchased my worst album". So, at least he knows it. I think it's bad, but since I'm a completist, I own it. And, I stayed with Richard Thompson, until "The Old Barfbag", his next to last disc...it was so mediocre, so "we've done this 1,000 times before", that it really pissed me off... Bob Dylan - "Self-Portrait" Willie Nelson - "Across the Great Divide", where he actually performs a duet with Rob Thomas (eeuuwww!). For shame, Willie. What kind of schwag were you smoking when that seemed like a good idea? | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 289 Registered: 04-2005 |
I've seen the Neil Young "Live in Berlin" video--yeah, the "Trans" set was bizarre, but funny. I believe people have come back from jumping the shark, with Neil probably having done it the most times. "Everybody's Rockin'" was a far worse crime than "Trans" in my mind, by the way. I said I'd never buy another album of his after that. Of course, I did because he got good again. It's funny Hardin, I actually think "The Old Kit Bag" was RT's best album since "Rumour and Sigh." Just because it wasn't as overproduced and had fewer of the "evil woman done me wrong" songs he's been writing over and over since 1983. I stick with my contention that the Stones jumped the shark with "Goats Head Soup" because it was so astonishingly boring and after that they never really seemed to be on the edge of what was happening in music. The recycling the classic Stones sound thing started on the next album, plus they mixed in the genre parodies/tributes. They made some good music after, but I think "Exile" was where they peaked as an "important" band. The Beatles were the smartest band ever because they didn't stick around to jump the shark, though I guess some would say they did with "Let It Be." Oh, and add the Velvets' '93 reunion tour as another great "jumping" moment, tarnishing what was before that a perfect legacy. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 328 Registered: 03-2006 |
"One man's shark-jumper..." Wow - shocked you liked it. The Old Shitbag may have been on the underproduced side, but alas, the songs were also underwritten, imo...I read that Thompson treats writing as a 9 to 5 job: he books an office and just goes there everyday and writes. I wonder if that approach is responsible for the workmanlike and uninspired quality of so many of his current songs...no, the last really great one for me was Mock Tudor. I thought that rocked like the proverbial big dog and had a lot of inspired tuneage. And, this does mean there can be multiple jumpings for an artist? It's not irreversible? If so, the Stones have done it multiple times. Goat's Head Soup is not great by any means, but had some great songs - Angie, Starf-er, and Dooo dooo doo, etc. Some of their latter period material(I guess that would be "middle period" at this late date) is pretty good, too, I think. Liked Some Girls and Tattoo You, a lot...So anyway, sometimes they can come back, at least partially, I guess... | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 145 Registered: 02-2005 |
If you’ll bear with me for a moment… think back to the days of high school when every LP purchase was a carefully considered expenditure of hard-fought adolescent earnings. Every album was given due consideration and repeated plays out of economic necessity. Sometimes the diligence paid off and with ‘Self Portrait’ I developed a kind of guilty pleasure admiration for the album. Sure, it’s messy, but the countrypolitan pop collection at its heart is really sweet and I always felt very adult listening to it back in 1970. I think of it as a classic writers block album… “Ol’ Zimmy’s been put out to pasture in the noon day sun, how’s he s’posed to get any writtin’ done?” His original concept was probably for a collection of mostly cover versions book-ended by a couple of instrumentals, but with all the hoopla surrounding his comeback at the Isle of Wight he cobbled together the 24-track double that was greeted with a level of enthusiasm normally reserved for a trip to the dentist. But really, dere’s beauty in dem dere grooves. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 331 Registered: 03-2006 |
I can completely understand and agree with your affection for Self-Portrait, Guy... Without sounding two-faced (hopefully), I can still play this highly amusing game, yet manage to look fondly on the records discussed. And most of the records discussed above, I'm pretty fond of anyway... My problem is once I become sold on an artist, like Ray Davies, who I think hung the moon, I still really appreciate them, even when they fail, relatively speaking. I'm a relative latecomer to the Kinks - their glory days were slightly before my time - and, though my older brother was into them, I never saw what the fuss was...then somebody gave me the Kinks Kronikles and I quickly, make that kwikly, became a rabid fan. So, I just picked up a used copy of "Everybody's in Showbiz" the other day, and you know, it ain't that bad. So, in short (if that's still possible), I agree with youse about dem byootiful grooves...Also, on second thought, I'm not sure "Portrait" meets the "desperation test" that's part of the shark-jumping phenomenon. Bob, then as now, simply doesn't care enough to be desperate - he always marches to his own wacky drummer. | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 146 Registered: 02-2005 |
I'd never heard the phrase "jumping the shark" either, but it's not bad (never a Happy Days fan though... too old). Most every artist has a messy fall from grace, but there are those whose lesser later works are still interesting (and that I continue to buy), those who I simply lose interest in when the QC goes down the tubes and those who I get outright disgusted with. I actually own every studio album by The Rolling Stones. Why, I do not know. It's become a running gag that every album they make is greeted with "their best since Exile" and most of them are room temperature turds, but I still pick them up eventually. As far as dull, adult Stones albums go I think 'Bridges to Babylon' may be their best, k.d. lang rip and all. The classic Stones albums through 'Exile' are never too far from my play pile. Elvis Costello just outlived his usefulness in my collection, although I'm curious about his soon-to-be-released collaboration with Allen Toussaint (big NOLA fan here, especially his work with Lee Dorsey). But I rarely pull out Elvis' good albums either, the first four... I just got bored with him, I guess. I would never buy another David Bowie album and my disgust with his artistic evaporation is so complete I don't even listen to the old ones. Somebody else hereabouts commented about how his work hasn't aged well and I agree... always looking over his shoulder to see if people are appreciating how "clever" he is. The fact that he's considered a demi-god by so many British fans who were too young to buy the albums in their day really baffles me. I don't get that perception around here, but on other boards. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 354 Registered: 05-2005 |
Hardin, your southern phrases are cracking me up!  First the Lucinda W car one, then "jumping the shark", and now "hung the moon". what does that one mean? Im guessing its a variation on "the bees knees"? The only southern phrase I can think off the top of my head is Stipes immortal"losing my religion". Feel free to drop some more in and we can play "spot Hardins funny phrase". On the Kinks, I like you came late and think Davies is a top knotch songwriter. Have you heard his new solo one yet? Mojo had a big Kinks article recently, and the writer of the piece reckoned that this album should be considered as a comeback to rival Johnny Cash getting together with Rick Rubin, and Dylans last 2 albums - high praise indeed. I have downloaded it from Napster but not played it yet, will get to it over the weekend. | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 147 Registered: 02-2005 |
Somebody mentioned Stereolab's 'Dots & Loops' and even thought I'm a fan, I understand the point. They changed with that album and while it's a favorite of many fans the hypnotic drive of their early sound left them at that juncture. I've bought everything since and enjoy a lot of it, but it's hard to be passionate about them anymore. This raises related points... just how much fuel does any artist have in the tank and how durable is a singular musical vision. I think with Stereolab they would have been screwed either way, making another one just like the other one or changing tact. The Go-Betweens are fairly unique in all this because their vision seems fluid enough to be continuously reinvented. It didn't hurt that they fleshed-out the trio to quartet and quintet in the 1980's, but they seem to be doing just fine in the new millennium as well. I guess it's the strength of the songs. | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 148 Registered: 02-2005 |
Somebody mentioned Stereolab's 'Dots & Loops' and even though I'm a fan, I understand the point. They changed with that album and while it's a favorite of many fans the hypnotic drive of their early sound left them at that juncture. I've bought everything since and enjoy a lot of it, but it's hard to be passionate about them anymore. This raises related points... just how much fuel does any artist have in the tank and how durable is a singular musical vision. I think with Stereolab they would have been screwed either way, making another one just like the other one or changing tact. The Go-Betweens are fairly unique in all this because their vision seems fluid enough to be continuously reinvented. It didn't hurt that they fleshed-out the trio to quartet and quintet in the 1980's, but they seem to be doing just fine in the new millennium as well. I guess it's the strength of the songs. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 335 Registered: 03-2006 |
Ray Davies? Yup, I'm all over that sumbitch, like white on rice...I threw that in just to amuse you, Kev. I'm really not that big a "Bubba", though some of it does inevitably seep in, unfortunately. And actually, as colorful as it is, "jumping the shark" isn't even really southern. It's a more or less national phenomenon. Here's the website that possibly started it: http://www.jumptheshark.com/ Yeah, I really do think (the other) Brother Ray, Mr. Davies, is one of the greatest songwriters that has ever lived. Up there with Bob Dylan, Lucinda, Neil Young, Cole Porter, and Declan McManus, and oh, and the songwriting duo of Macca and John L. Bubbling under would be the McForster duo, Paddy McAloon, Glimmer Twins and Hoagy Carmichael (Stardust just may be the best song ever written). Oops, left out Hank Williams. Hey, that's another thread - great songwriters. And yeah, I really like the new one by Ray, think it's pretty amazing. I just really really dig his songwriting and where he's coming from. And, while it might not be up to the standard of "Waterloo Sunset" (few are...ok, there's one better than Stardust, sorry Hoagy), it's still very damned good. Allen Toussaint is phenomenal, Guy, so I am looking forward to that collaboration. I saw him at the Jazz Fest a few years ago and it was one of the best things I've ever seen, there, or anyplace, and he certainly is a cornerstone of classic N.O. music. Impressive and shocking you have all those Stones discs. You surpass me, because I haven't purchased all of them and have traded some in, but I completely understand the appeal and the draw...at the height of their powers they were unsurpassable...I love that, like George Jones, like Jerry Lee Lewis, etc. (and unlike wussies like Jon Bon Jovi, for instance) have had the courage to actually live the lifestyle, for better or worse...Denis Leary has a joke that we'll have to wait till Keef dies and smoke his ashes if we want drugs, because there are no more drugs. Keith snorted them all up! Reminds me of a quote of Tom Waits - he said that to see Keith Richards just put on a guitar was instant rock n roll theater. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 335 Registered: 03-2005 |
Some comments on here remind me that the Ray Davies album is due for a second spin. It didn't really get me first time. I bailed on the Kinks after the "Lola v. Powerman" album. To my ears, they started to descent into that 70's flabby sound and that's when I develop deafness. So I was bemused when, much later, an acquaintance not known for musical sophistication popped up with a copy of their new album "Give the People What They Want." I had paid so little attention that I didn't even know they were enjoying a commercial resurgence. And the aptly-named "Give the People" was shockingly get-a-gun-and-shoot-the-Davies-brothers bad. I also agree people can climb back. I thought the Fall were all over when I bought "Levitate." When the obligatory cover song is the best moment, you know things are very bad. But now I'm tempted to tip "The Real New Fall LP" as one of this decade's greats. I never heard "Dots & Loops" because I'm fairly hit and miss about getting Stereolab's records but, yeah, I still like "Switched On" best. To follow on Guy's question about how much fuel an artist has, it seems to me that bands often have less fuel in the tank simply because whatever they do has to be something four or five people agree on. What are the odds that everybody is interested in changing, or in changing in loosely the same direction? I think this can often box them in. A solo artist can evolve much more freely. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 355 Registered: 05-2005 |
Unless Randy, the band in question has a dominant out and out leader. Case in point, M.E.S and The Fall - if the band doesnt agree with him he just fires them! | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 337 Registered: 03-2005 |
True that, god bless him. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 336 Registered: 03-2006 |
Hey, why ain't you two out drinkin' beah, luvin it up with byootiful wimmins? Me, I'm stuck in the office finishing up my taxes...Rand, would you at least agree that the whole CA tax code, system, etc. is a total f-ing pain in the ass? | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 337 Registered: 03-2006 |
Hey, why ain't you two out drinkin' beah, luvin it up with byootiful wimmins? Me, I'm stuck in the office finishing up my taxes (bad procrastinatin me)...Rand, would you at least agree that the whole CA tax code, system, etc. is a total f-ing pain in the ass? | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 358 Registered: 05-2005 |
I am also working Hardin, doing a night shift here with just me and a bank of computer monitors for company. although I do have a pile of CDs to listen to (see "what are people listening to" thread for details) Gene Clarke and The Byrds blasting out just now ps - if I was "luvin it up with byootiful wimmins" my good lady wife Clare would sure have something to say about that | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 341 Registered: 03-2005 |
Hardin, two words: turbo tax. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 79 Registered: 01-2005 |
I right with Stereolab thru Emperor Tomato Ketchup, but my favorite is Transient Random Nosie Bursts With Annoucements. I love turning up Jenny O loud. I usually follow it up with Velocity Girl's Copacetic to complete my 1993 noise blast! | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 149 Registered: 02-2005 |
Working musicians will almost invariably disappoint their audiences. Sometimes I think My Bloody Valentine had the right idea. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 297 Registered: 04-2005 |
True, Guy. The follow-up to "Loveless" was almost sure to disappoint. A current band that I wonder about in the same respect is Arcade Fire. What do they do for a second album? Go for a more stripped down sound, or get even more layered and grandiose? Either way, they'll probably alienate a good share of the critics and some of their audience. Making Funeral 2 would be even worse, though. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 298 Registered: 04-2005 |
By the way, I didn't see Randy's earlier post about the Kinks until today, but I agree heartily. "Lola vs. Powerman" definitely was a last gasp in a number of ways. I grudgingly admire "Muswell Hillbillies," but it was really the start of their decline into '70s theatricality, which may have made for fun shows but didn't make for listenable albums. For me, that shark got jumped on the next album, "Showbiz," where they stopped sounding like a rock band most of the time, opting mostly for cute music hall-style stuff and maudlin ballads. The next few concept albums make me cringe to think about--I can't believe how many times I listened to them in my Kinks-fanatic teenage years, trying to like them...and failing. They recovered slightly with "Sleepwalker" and "Misfits," but "Low Budget" was a U.S. audience pandering/arena rock atrocity and the albums after were even worse. If the Kinks had broken up in 1970, they'd have a near spotless legacy. Now I think they're way overrated in rock history because it was obvious Ray Davies had a finite amount of inspiration that he used up pretty quickly. Also, Robert Christgau, pompous jerk though he may often be, once observed that the Kinks' '70s music was stuck halfway between amateur sloppiness and professional competence. Their sloppy, murky '60s records are charming because it suited the times, but once they got clean, modern production (the RCA albums and beyond), it became more evident that they weren't (sorry to ruffle any feathers here) a very good band, musically. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 347 Registered: 03-2006 |
Sloppy, shmoppy. Kurt, arguments of professional competence and, what was it, being a good band musically, totally lose me. As discussed in some other threads, at the end of the day, technical competence isn't really what it's all about - at least in the pop/rock arena. Otherwise, the greatest band in history would be Toto. Also, much as I love 'em, the GBs aren't the greatest that ever lived, musically speaking, either. That indefinable, artistic je ne sais quoi that we all spend so much time holding forth on has nothing to do with technical musical excellence. Funnily enough though, despite being a huge Kinks fan, I did come to them a little late, so I really can't debate which album was which or best, or where they lost it, or got it back. Their "career arc" escapes me. Like I said above, I started to get into them obsessively when someone gave me a copy of "Kronikles". Then, after getting hooked, I picked up a lot of their katalog (sorry)...sadly though, I don't have a good grip on what came out when, and to further obfuscate things, apparently a lot of the stuff was released in different configurations overseas...So, I'm a little fuzzy on what came out when, what songs are on what. In fact, I got the "Pye Collection" over the holidays, a very cutesy, boxed collection of some of the early albums, and though I thought I already had several of them, there are different track listings on the f-ers! I do know this, though: Kronikles is unassailable, untouchable stuff, as is "Village Green" - for me, it handily trumps Sgt. Pepper's...A lot of that period, you mention, i.e. Sleepwalker, Misfits, etc. seems a little lame-o, I agree: I haven't really been able to access the charms of that middle, middling period, though I keep trying (though not terribly hard). By comparison, I thought "Give the People What They Want" was pretty damn hooky, and demonstrated solid songwriting chops. I forgive them their arena rock stylings, too - as I murkily understand their history, after being prevented from touring in the US as a result of various "issues", they were quite eagerly trying to make their stadium "bones" in the 70's and, quite frankly, get paid, for a change. The title song by the way, of "People" was totally ironic - RD doesn't think for a second the people SHOULD get what they want. "Showbiz", btw, isn't that bad either, in fact, is much more than decent. I just bought it - like I said, I'm spottily acquiring their catalog. And, I like the music hall-y stuff, and the maudlin ballads. As I understand brother Ray's influences, the music hall thing is a pretty intrinsic part of his muse. Muswell Hillbillies is excellent, Word of Mouth is very good - I haven't picked up Preservation, Acts I & II, but I will probably will, to be a completist. And when I stop to delve into what about the Kinks makes the pull of their best work so strong, I realize it has nothing to do with the band so much - the four musicians and how they gel as an entity - and everything to do with Ray's songwriting. I could care less how well the band plays (don't even know their names, apart from DAve's), as long as the songwriting holds up, and I would argue that, with a few dips here and there, it has...Ray Davies is, if anything, underrated. As for Christgau, as much as I enjoy and admire his "professional competence" - he is full of caca, and must be taken with 10 lb. bags of salt. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 299 Registered: 04-2005 |
Sorry, Hardin--maybe I was a little harsh on the Kinks. I was having a bad morning at work when I wrote that! But I got very frustrated with them after following them album-by-album since about '75. And the most depressing rock show I've ever seen was the Kinks in Oakland in (I think) '80; it was all longhaired teenage boys, huge clouds of pot smoke, waving cigarette lighters, and metalized versions of Kinks songs that had been recently covered by other, younger artists (Van Halen, the Jam, Pretenders, etc.). I guess the band deserved to cash in, but it was a sad spectacle because I realized that if 90% of the audience heard something from "Village Green" on the radio, they'd say, "what is this wimpy (insert euphemism for gay) crap?" As for the musical thing, you're right--quoting Christgau is a dubious move. And goodness knows I don't care about chops. However, I think the point he was getting at (and I agree with) is that the Kinks were caught in an awkward position in the mid to late '70s because of the emergence of punk and new wave. They were an established veteran band, so to imitate the style of punk seemed a bit disingenuous, even though as band, that was probably about where their ability and inclination lay. But they failed to develop an interesting alternative because musical creativity was never Ray's strong suit (which is fine; being a great songwriter should be enough). So musically, they were just indistinct, prone to following mainstream trends. I guess I'm saying that latter period Kinks weren't musically interesting to me at a time when countless musically interesting punk and postpunk bands springing up. And unlike their peers the Stones and Who, they didn't really have a signature sound (the power chords they practically invented in '64 were generic rock by '78) or a musical genius in the band. "The Kinks Kronikles" and the best of the '60s albums ("Something Else," "Face to Face," "Village Green," "Arthur") are beyond criticism, no question. Practically everything Ray wrote then was gold in all but how well it did on the charts. And the music had a kind of wobbly charm; they bucked trends by getting less loud as the '60s progressed. | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 150 Registered: 02-2005 |
I have to say, as a fan who started with "You Really Got Me" on 45, their career arc is pretty much as Kurt states. "Lola vs. Powerman and the Money-Go-Round" is probably my favorite and most-listened-to Kinks album - Strangers, Get Back in the Line, A Long Way From Home - and "Muswell Hillbillies" has sublime moments - Oklahoma USA. Celluloid Heroes is a classic song from "Everybody's in Showbiz" and I enjoyed "Preservation Act 1", but after that the loyalty factor starts weighing-in BIG TIME. I'd read a number of positive reviews about "Word of Mouth" on Amazon and bought a cheap (cheap) copy... honestly, I can't get past the sound and production on that album. It might as well be Toto. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 350 Registered: 03-2006 |
Guy, I feel like the character Jackson in "Sideways": while you, who's more like the wine afficionado character, Miles, are talking about the complexity of the wine, how it tastes like oak, how the berries taste insipid because they weren't gently massaged when they were young, I'm slurping it down, licking my lips, asking for "more, please". I just don't really care all that much about production niceties, sound, etc., unless it really sounds like shit. If the meat, the artistic statement, the whatever, is there, then everything else is completely secondary. Cases in point: to me, two of the best albums any human has ever made are Leonard Cohen's "I'm Your Man" and "The Future". Have you heard them? I can't imagine cheesier production, or more horribly dated cornball synth arrangements, but they represent, to me, stupendous artistic achievements. I can't make a special pleading for Word of Mouth as a classic or one of their best, but the bottom line for me is it has some good songs, amongst them "Do It Again" and "Living On a Thin Line" (used oddly enough in a Sopranos episode). Also, like I said, I can't make any value judgements about or impose a design on their career arc - I'm realizing that that really is part of playing the "shark" game: you really have to have bought albums one by one, just like you would have had to watch the TV show religiously, it being a TV based metaphor. I'm more like the person who's only seen episodes on hotel cable. And Kurt, your points are well taken. I would particularly agree that Ray has never proven himself to be particularly adept at riding the zeitgeist...he is always out of step - which is to me part of his raggedy charm. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 300 Registered: 04-2005 |
Hardin, I have to give you props (mad props, in fact) for being able to hear music beyond time-stamped production techniques, overblown arrangements, etc. I just can't do it, and I've probably dismissed a lot of otherwise worthwhile songs and albums as a result. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 349 Registered: 03-2005 |
Ok, by virtue of my unusually early induction into pop music thanks to my seven-years-older brother, I am probably the old fart here. I remember "You Really Got Me" as a current single. It was electrifying; it beat the crap out of its presumed template--the Kingsmen's "Louie Louie." I remember the whole string of great singles which made it onto the charts here on the West coast. I remember the big change when "Well Respected Man" came out and how great we all thought it was and I can still remember where I was when I heard "Dedicated Follower of Fashion" for the first time. I'd rather hear "Kinda Kinks," "Kontroversy," "Face to Face," "Something Else," and "Village Green Preservation Society" than any of the later albums. The band, or Ray Davies himself if you like, was developing from one record to the next. It also helps quite a lot that Shel Talmy was in the sound booth on everything until "VGPS." Mr. Talmy was one of the 60s' great rock producers. The famous Kinks "wall of sound" was as much his creation as the band's. The 1970s condemned most 60s bands that had survived that long to a slow slide. They either went MOR like the Hollies or just recycled flabbier versions of their earlier selves like the Kinks and the Stones. The records ceased to be exciting, pure and simple. They ceased to write their own rules. | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 152 Registered: 02-2005 |
Hardin, It's true that I don't ignore production qualities, but I'm not an intollerant purist either. There are people here who complain about the "dated" sound of 1980's Go-Betweens albums and while I'm aware that the drum sounds change from album to album and that some of them are sampled from Lindsey's playing rather than being natural "realtime" performances, none of that is so dramatic that it distracts from my pleasure (or that I even notice it in any negative way). But with The Kinks "Word of Mouth"... that album sounds more like Bon Jovi than 'Sunny Afternoon.' It's really out there. The Kinks had an identity that embraced a broad spectrum of sounds and styles, but anonymous Corporate Rock isn't something I want to scrape away at in search of a gem beneath. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 351 Registered: 03-2006 |
Hats! That’s it! By the Blue Nile…that’s another great, immortal record that contains some pretty abysmal production choices…I just saw it mentioned on another thread. Whoa Guy, you're really pulling out all the big guns - comparing the Kinks to the dread Bon Jovi - next it'll be the Back Street Boys. I just don't hear that record that way - and, while I'm not defending it as a masterpiece, I think it's far from being without worth. Anonymous it certainly was not and corporate shmorporate…I’ve never understood the use of that word as an epithet, at least as applied to music. If it means commercial, of course they were trying to be…they weren’t no dummies…they wanted to sell records, get on MTV. In my book, that’s no sin. Don’t think the GBs wouldn’t prefer to sell shitloads of records and be on VH1. Btw, some of your great music of all time, Motown, for instance, is motivated by commercial impulses. I’m sure even Shel Talmy’s primary goal was to move units…there’s no way they could’ve won anyway. If they’d continued to put out records with that classic 60’s sound they would’ve gotten grief for that, as well. I, being no fool, absolutely prefer those classic era Kinks albums, though as stated, I'm a bit confused as to the exact titles that comprises (for the sake of argument we could call it the era anthologized on Kronikles)...what I take issue with is completely dismissing all their recorded output since whatever arbitrary timepoint…Arthur, Shel Talmy’s departure. I think to do so is inaccurate and greatly overstates the case. That’s the trouble with applying the shark-jumping concept to musical artists. Pick some arbitrary point, some circumstance that you think is defining, they’ll come back with a masterpiece and show you you were wrong…for instance, if you say everything the Stones did post- Andrew Loog sucked, then that’s a shame, because you’re missing out on brilliant, career-defining wonderful discs like Sticky Fingers. Or, if that arbitrary point of demarcation is Goat’s Head Soup, you’re gonna miss out on Some Girls, a total f-ing classic. And, there are people, even on this board (oohh) who completely dismiss the Mach II Go-Betweens, or the GBs since Vickers left, and really, at the end of the day, who gives a rat’s ass? It’s just so much trainspotting, and it’s they who are missing out. I think the Kinks handled the 70’s about as well as any of the classic 60’s era artists, like your Stones and your Who…the era , as well as the advent of punk, proved pretty vexing and problematic for them all. For the Who, this adjustment period resulted in the execrable Who Are You, but the kick in tail punk provided appeared to be quite beneficial to the Stones, resulting in the above mentioned “Girls”…WAY, btw, actually is a good and pure example of the shark-jumping phenom – arguably, they never made a good record as a group after that. Kurt, mea culpas are good for the soul…yes, my secret is out…I just don’t have that narrowly defined aesthetic parameters about what I listen to, at least with regard to production. Call me a philistine (just don’t call me late to dinner ) They’ll be coming to take away my “fanboy” card any minute now… | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 153 Registered: 02-2005 |
Yeah, Bon Jovi was below the belt. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 354 Registered: 03-2006 |
Painful...I think I let out an audible "oooff" when I read that. | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 154 Registered: 02-2005 |
This has become a Kinks thread. I kept up with The Kinks through 'Preservation Act 2' which was just too campy for its own good. Ugly cover too. I wasn't in record buying mode when the next two came out, but I thought 'Misfits' and 'Sleepwalker' were pretty cool. I lost interest in later ones (from what I heard of them) and after pulling the trigger on 'Word of Mouth' I doubt I'll explore further. Sure, times change, the demands of radio change, production approaches change and I'm happy to see an artist evolve... within reason. If the Bon Jovi swipe is off the mark I'm not sure who I'd compare 'WoM' to... maybe something squarely mainstream like Huey Lewis & The News. But you see, I kind of liked them. I'm not a total snob. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 355 Registered: 03-2006 |
Yes, it's almost become a Kinks *board*, not that there's anything wrong with that, as they say on Seinfeld. And, don't get me wrong, I'm no Kinks apologist, though I must sound prettty zealous... For instance, I had Pres. Acts 1 & 2, but traded them in - I really couldn't find the tunecraft in them. Now, I'm thinking of getting 'em again to be completist. When I had them before, I was completely at sea trying to find some kernel of artistic worth, some something there. Now, I possibly have the fortitude and stamina to check them out again. When I really like artists sometimes the aura of their best stuff spills over to their other stuff and clouds the judgement, though sometimes it provides a bridge...I doubt I could have gotten into the latter-period, more out there Tom Waits (another huge fave) stuff, if I hadn't been well-grounded in his earlier, more conventional song craft. Now I prefer the latter period. I must be close to having everything by the Kinks, but to really figure that out, I'd have to study a website or buy a book and that'd just make me feel too fanboy, too trainspotter-ish...I don't have "Soap Opera", "UK Jive", "Think Visual" or "Phobia", but even I'm hesitant to get those. A quick consult of online resources indicates that even the hardcore fanboys probably think they're excresences... I would never cast you as a snob, Guy...somehow, hardcore George Jones fandom seems completely antithetical to the very concept of elitism... | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 301 Registered: 04-2005 |
Hardin, you know we agree on a lot of other things, so don't hold my critical attacks on the Kinks against me! Actually, you've made me think I should go back and explore a few of the albums I wrote off (say, Showbiz). Too bad I traded away so many of my Kinks albums. I used to be a completist. But as for the ones you don't have--I found "Think Visual" in a bargain bin and played it just once. Not much of substance there. Very little hard rock on it, although if I recall correctly, it has a horrible "rock 'n' roll cities" song from Dave (that may have been the title...ugh). "Soap Opera" had a few songs that were fun and a pretty good rocker in "Ducks on the Wall," but it's probably the least worthy of the concept albums otherwise; as you say, not much songcraft. I've read "UK Jive" was a bit of a comeback, but I never heard it. I may still have vinyl copies of "Preservation Act 1" and "Think Visual" to trade if you're interested. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 356 Registered: 03-2006 |
Kurt, please...I wouldn't dream of holding your opinions against you. They're just opinions, quite reasonably expressed. Plus, you and Guy and Randy, along with that rat bastid Kevin (kidding, Kev), are some of my favorite peeps on the board -also, the most funnest to read! I just fear we're boring the stuffing out of everybody else on the board, who might not have the same interest in Kinkmania... Nice and tempting offer about the vinyl, but unfortunately my sad-ass, tiny OC apartment precludes my having much vinyl...particularly those dogs (ha).... | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 303 Registered: 04-2005 |
Yeah, you're right--too much about the Kinks. What other shark-jumpers can we go after? The only thing more fun than discussing what we like is discussing what we don't like. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 366 Registered: 05-2005 |
I really need to look out my Kinks CDs, thats whats so great about this board, people are always mentioning bands and albums and you think "must dig that one out". Im not an afficianado like some of you guys, but have a greatest hits, Village green, Arthur, Muswell and Lola... ps - maybe just me, but arent You really got me and All day and all of the night just the same song with different lyrics? | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 357 Registered: 03-2006 |
ahhh, Kevin's luring me back in to talking about the Kinksters. Kev, they're not exactly the same, but very close indeed...both are very basic riffs. The You Really Got Me riff has just two chords (basically that's all it is, until it modulates), the All Day one has three...I know this from fledgling attempts at playing them on guitar... | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 305 Registered: 04-2005 |
Someone explained the "difference" between the two songs in a book I read. In "You Really Got Me," Ray sings against the riff, where in "All Day," he sings with the riff. The writer argued that made "All Day" a lesser song. But "All Day" is a lot more loud and powerful, so I prefer it. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 351 Registered: 03-2005 |
Some tedious critic of the late 60s described the Kinks as "subtle and delicate." He was referring to the Kinks that gave us "VGPS" and "Arthur" of course, but my best friend and I used to get great laughs out of playing things like "You Really Got Me," "All Day and All the Night" and "Who'll Be the Next in Line" and nodding "yeah, subtle and delicate." I'd expect a large chunk of Go Betweens listeners to be into the mid-to late 60s Kinks. Now if I can only get people talking about the Easybeats . . . . | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 362 Registered: 03-2006 |
Eeuuww, "subtle and delicate" - sounds like an anti-perspirant. Yeah, I think that schizophrenia hurt 'em - "are they a rock band or just this bunch of pale, fey wussies that do nothing but simpering ballads?" - and played a role in their not becoming mega huge...of course, not touring in the States for four years, just when they were peaking couldn't have helped, either... the Easybeats..."Friday on my mind", right? Check out the brain for trivia on Hardin! Lame of me, but I think I've only heard the cover by Bowie, on Pin-Ups... | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 355 Registered: 03-2005 |
Hardin, the Easybeats are Oz' premier 60s band. Forget the Bee Gees. They recorded between 1964 and 1969, almost always doing their own songs. The 1964 recordings are essentially demos when they were first signed to Albert Productions and are amazing when compared to what other folks did at the time. They cut 3 albums in Oz which moved them through the early phases of teen scream music and included lots of incredible gems like "Wedding Ring," "I Can See," "Easy as Can Be," and "Sorry." "Friday on my Mind" (ruined like everything else on "Pinups" by Bowie) comes from their first album recorded in the U.K. under the auspices of Shel Talmy. At that phase in their career I think of them as a sort of 60s Television what with their two intertwining guitars and adenoidal angst songcraft. The U.K. influence then moved them into a schizophrenic mix of psychedelia and pop soul. Don't worry; it all works. It was during this era that the principal writers, Harry Vanda and George Young, began trying to sell their songs to other folks and a number of them were covered by other acts. Their songwriting demos make up one of the more rewarding chunks of the Easybeat legacy. They returned to Oz when the U.K. didn't work out and lead vocalist Stevie Wright became a reasonably successful solo act (between drug binges) and Vanda & Young became big-deal writers and producers, responsible for AC/DC and others and resurfacing in their own right as "Flash & the Pan." Do you remember "Walking in the Rain" by Grace Jones? That's theirs. They are such an essential part of Oz musical DNA that when I "requested" "Friday on My Mind" at the Go Bees' Troubadour show last year, Grant immediately started playing the rhythm guitar intro. Just send me your physical address and I can send you a sample CD. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 368 Registered: 03-2006 |
Geez man, you should be writing books on them. Impressive display of knowledge. Ah yes, I've heard of Vanda-Young...one of those duo names that sticks to the brain, like Lennon-McCartney or Hanna-Barbera. The "Walking in the Rain" is not the same tune as the Phil Spector-produced hit (by a girl group whose name escapes me) is it? If it is - that's actually already a favorite. The Spector (murdering s.o.b. that he is) set, Back to Mono, is a phenomenal box set as well, btw, though the sound leaves something to be desired...mono shmono... But yeah, that sounds like a must-hear, so thanks, I will take you up on it. In case I ever have beers with GM, I need to be able to converse knowledgeably about Oz music (it could happen). | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 369 Registered: 03-2006 |
Aaaarrrgghhhh..it was the Ronettes...how could I have forgotten Ronnie Spector's indelible vocal on it?...gotta lay off the crack! | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 356 Registered: 03-2005 |
Hardin, I've already thrown together the CD. I'm just trying to cut down the obsessive notes on the tracks I'm sending over. This "Walking in the Rain" is totally different. It's a dark spoken word thing from around 1980 or so. And, yeah, the Ronettes are great. Ronnie Spector has one of those you-can't-mistake-her voices. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 315 Registered: 04-2005 |
I remember Flash & the Pan's "Walking in the Rain"! That was a big favorite on KSAN in San Francisco, back when it was one of the last "free-form" commercial FM stations in the country. Then Grace Jones covered it and the college stations in the Bay Area were all over it for a few months, along with her version of "Warm Leatherette." Wonder if iTunes has the original "Walking in the Rain"? I wouldn't mind having it. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 378 Registered: 03-2006 |
Randy, thanks - that sounds great...it'll help fill in a gap in my knowledge...and don't cut down on the obsessive notes on my part - sounds like they'd be fun to plow through... |