| Author | Message | ||
     Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 716 Registered: 05-2005 |
Interesting, articulate debate on whether music still matters on the Observer website at 1892763%2C00.html,http://observer.guardian.co.uk/omm/story/0,,1892763,00.html I am appalled and disgusted to learn that Johnny Cash's version of Hurt is now being used on a Nike ad. I hope I never see that ad. I can't imagine Johnny having allowed that if he were alive. How venal and shortsighted are his children (presuming they now own the copyright) that they allow such an abomination to happen? | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 717 Registered: 05-2005 |
That link is wrong (not sure how it happened). Go to http://observer.guardian.co.uk/ then go halfway down the page and click on the link for 'Does music still matter?' | ||
| Jonathan Evans Member Username: Jon Post Number: 43 Registered: 04-2005 |
Its an interesting point. Obviously its a NIN song covered by Johnny Cash. Do NIN have to give permission as well as Johnny Cash's family. I would also like to say Nike is very appropriate considering all those 'hurt' on $1.80 a day in the far east. Cheers Jon | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 831 Registered: 05-2005 |
Yes, cheers Padraig, I will read it this evening from yesterday's printed supplement, looks very very interesting, it sounds like someone might have to call time-out! On a aslightly diff theme thius I found interesting. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6048744.stm | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 1014 Registered: 05-2005 |
I watched the Johnny Cash documentary that was on BBC4 today. The last 10 minutes or so concentrated on Hurt and the making of the video. Johnnys daughter Roseanne revealed that some of the content that ended up on the cutting room floor was even more harrowing than the finished video. Jesus!! | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 836 Registered: 05-2005 |
Mind you Padraig The Fall did alright out of the Vauxhall Corsa ad, is that right Kev? Now there's a band that's worth the prostitution. In fact I think Mark Smoith said his lawyers were on the case re royalties as his publsher had forgot to submit to the PRS!!!!!!! hat's plain stupid and silly, bit like people who set their MySpace to this: 'This profile is set to private. This user must add you as a friend to see his/her profile.' What is the point of that!!!!! Pathetic, if they want it private then email for Chrissake!! RANT over  ... | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 956 Registered: 03-2006 |
Not to gloom & doom, but I don't think music matters any more. I mean, it does to all of us, obviously, but it doesn't really matter in any larger, societal sense. I think this is due to at least two forces: a) the increasing "niche-ification" of music. In the past, say the Sixties, everybody liked pretty much the same thing, and all of that music that was at the top of the charts was pretty uniformly great. Now it's all splintered into a zillion different subgroups, like emo, screamo, crunk, hyphy, et al...there isn't the capacity for it to make the same kind of impact now. All the shit that does make it to the top of the charts, meaning in a sense, "everybody likes it", is so dumbed and watered down as to be indistinguishable from elevator muzak. and b) the commodification of music. It's all just "content" now, or "product". What was the phrase I saw? "iPod filler"...the vast majority of music is, I believe, less meaningful than in days past. And, it has totally lost the capacity to change society, which I think, arguably, it did in the past. It's just too ubiquitous - it's everywhere around us, to the point where it just melts away...I enjoyed that article, btw, and really liked the analogy of mp3 collecting to stamp collecting... | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 721 Registered: 05-2005 |
Good article Spence. Thanks for the link. | ||
| John B. Member Username: John_b Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2006 |
that's a good point, Keith. I think it starts in the family. The subject arose recently with a few friends and we wee serious wondering whether our kids would have some music to rebel against us when they are teenagers, or at least be different. One side of the problem is that there is no new revolutionary style. But haven't we monopolised so many different kinds of music ourselves that nothing is left for them? I would say we are the first generation that has been brought up from day one with pop music and all of its sub-genres. When we were young we could shock our parents (and others) with what we listened to because they didn't have that experience and the music was new. But what do kids have left these days when their parents listen to everything from the Beatles and Stones to the Ramones and The Fall, plus many of the so-called The-Bands? | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 839 Registered: 05-2005 |
There are some good points made with Jarvis and co in the Observer supplement, however I feel by the end of it, they haven't told me what I don't already know!? Anyone else feel the same? It was slightly biased in so much as they should have included around the table some of the carp they were on about, like Busted, or Five or whatever, or even Tiberland I mean Lake. Honestly thoiugh, why we need to listen to these people is beyond me. I think we all take on this holier than thou attitude to the new generations the older we get, its as simple as that. Its great the way a kid can see an instrument and think I'd like to play that, that is really special, what's not so good, is where the kid sees an electronic piece of sfotware that emulates a rack effect or an instrument and says I wanna learn to play that instead...as much as technology is the future, playing the intrument and loving it is the first step, to me anyways. PS Great points JB and LK. PSSS Bowie once commented that kids today don't go far back enough when tracing musical history, does anyone feel this is true? My kids will no doubt love the sound of the times when they are 13, but ol Dad will still let them download their fave Josef K tracks! Whilst jet packing round the globe that is!!!!!!! | ||
| John B. Member Username: John_b Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2006 |
I guess, Spence, the kids don't wont to go back that far. They like the sound of the times as you say when they start in earnest. Maybe we can help them through our tastes that it will go beyond Justin Timberland/Lake. It could be a matter of money as well. I am getting into "older" music these days because I can actually afford buying beyond contemporary music. Where can kids actually find out about all different styles and music history? Radio plays mainstream and MTV anything but music. If a radio station goes beyond mainstream it's usually just one style. Doesn't really help, does it? There were no fantastic stations here in Germany, but I recall Saturday nights listening to John Peel and Alan Bangs on BFBS. Bangs especially could play anything from an old Bob Dylan song via Scott Walker to some obscure punk group. And, lets face it, not everyone appreciates music in the same way as people here on the message board do. Re instruments: absolutely. But again, Spence, the kids these days are brought up with computers. We weren't, that's why we probably appreciate real instruments. That is no excuse, but at least could explain the difference. I hope I am not too cynical about this. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 844 Registered: 05-2005 |
Quite John, totally agree, the money thing is true too. I agree with what Paul Morely said, that everyone is doing music, its part of everything they do and the marketeers are conning them all the way into thinking that they have taste etc, they may well ahve as well, as we are all in the minority!! | ||
| John B. Member Username: John_b Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2006 |
Absolutely, Spence, and yes, it will ruin the magic of music even more than mainstream radio if morley's nightmare future scenario becomes true. he is also dead right with the stamp analogy but not fully right at the same time about the ipod. Of course its strange to see half of the people on the tube with head phones. But for me, for instance, the mp3-player allows me to listen to music much more than in previous years when I simply didn't have time to do so at home. Now I take my mp3 when I go for a run, when I am on assignment or lying on the beach. I don't want to be cut off from the real world 24 hours a day, but I have listened to a hell of a lot of albums I hadn't heard in ages. Going back to Hurt and the ad. I haven't seen it but would be probably shocked as well. But then again, why must such a song be limited to a minority with an ecclectic taste in music. Others have the right to listen to it as well, even if that happens through an ad. And if it leads them to JC or NIN, all the better. And no, I don't like Nike and refrain from buying their products. I remember hearing The Walkabouts in a local department store. My first thought was "you can't do that, its not muzak." But then I thought that someone lese would hear it and perhaps discover the band this way. That idea I liked. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 458 Registered: 08-2004 |
I'm positive about the present & the future. As long as I'm not force-fed rubbish on TV & radio. It's better to hear Arcade Fire on Sky Sports Than R. Williams Esq. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 758 Registered: 04-2005 |
I really enjoyed the discussion on the state of music in the article. Nick Cave really hit the nail on the head when he talked about how music has lost its mystery because so much information is out there now on the Internet and elsewhere. In the old days (most of us here remember them), it's like he said: you bought the album, brought it home, and then studied the cover, the liner notes, the lyrics, the band photos, etc., and you tried to "figure out" the artist and where he/she/they were coming from. This was even true of pop-oriented artists like Elton John because there just wasn't much mainstream coverage of rock/pop music then (though to be fair, the UK had a much more thriving music press than the States, so we were probably more deprived here than most of you on the board). We just weren't so oversaturated with information as we are now. The mystique is mostly gone from music, and I really miss it. It doesn't necessarily mean current music is worse or less meaningful, but the feeling of being in on some sort of cool secret club is mostly gone. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 961 Registered: 03-2006 |
One thing that gives me a little hope is the continual re-issuing of some justifiably recognized classics in "deluxe" formats. You know, "Fisherman's Blues", etc...It bodes well on some level, I think, that those records are recognized as such and enough people are buying them to make it worth the companies' while to put them out. John B (your moniker reminds me of my fave Beach Boys song, you know, the one about the sloop), I agree muchly with your point about Hurt and how exposure to it has to, overall, be a good thing. It is, unfortunately or not, an increasingly viable way for bands to be heard. At least here in America. It makes me think of the VW commercial that used "Pink Moon". Maybe it bothered people on some level that that sacrosanct masterpiece was being used to hawk cars, but on the other hand, it introduced a whole new generation to Nick Drake, boosted his profile, and ended up in a bunch of new reissues. I'm sure it ultimately resulted in many shekels rolling into the Drake estate coffers. That's the thing, too, in today's dysfunctional record company model, it seems that the artists are the last to see any real money, unless they're some kind of mega act like, I dunno, the Stones. The GoBees are a perfect example, and I say f-ing bully for them. I think it's great if they made a little extra cash off of "Streets" by letting it out for an advert. The songs, btw, will be just fine. They are much more durable and resilient than that. People will probably be listening to Hurt by JC long after archeologists of the distant future are digging Nike running shoes out of landfills and wondering what the hell that was all about... | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 1022 Registered: 05-2005 |
Kurt, you're right about mystique being gone. I'm sure we all discussed this on another thread a few months back and agreed on this, also I think we talked about how nothing is shocking anymore. Nobody really likes cool secret clubs(unless you're in one ha ha) but in this information deluged age bands dont really get the chance to grow at a sensible pace anymore, witness Arcade Fire and Arctic Monkeys last year. The best way I can think of describing it is people dont have to try to hard to hear music now, its force fed, and thats to the detriment of the bands artistic growth in my opinion. In the "good old days" you had to have your ear to the ground, listen to Peel, buy the music press or see support bands at gigs to be exposed to ground breaking new acts. These days , with blogs and myspace bands are famous before they have even released a record. Its a catch 22 situation if you ask me, you dont want to halt progress in new technology and communication, but at this rate bands will be having a No1 record before they have even formed!! | ||
| John B. Member Username: John_b Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2006 |
Little Keith, i have actually used the moniker sloopjohnb - in a different internet forum. It's one of my favourite Beach Boys songs as well. And yes, Kevin, that about sums it up. Can I throw casting shows in the ring? The ultimate so far in "How to create a star," it even beats blog and myspace-bands. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 737 Registered: 05-2005 |
I never liked Sloop John B until I saw Brian Wilson play Pet Sounds live and it was quite obvious he loves the song. The live version was incredible. A lot of people who adore Pet Sounds don't much like Sloop John B. | ||
| John B. Member Username: John_b Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2006 |
i am somewhat glad you haven't seen me, padraig, maybe you would then really hate the song. i can understand that people don't like the song on pet sounds - but on its own its just fantastic. | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 257 Registered: 04-2006 |
I read the article/debate, too. It started interesting, but sunk in to irrelevance. Anyhow we have a nice discussion here. I surely can underwrite most of what have been said/written. Yet i will write down some heretical thoughts of mine. Does music still matters? I am sure it always will - at least for those who will be touched by it in their heart and soul. I think that a lot of people out there are still receptive for that. The way to become a music lover has changed (maybe/for sure?). But if you are interested in something you always will dig a little bit deeper and surely will not remain on the surface. The WWW helps a lot in this matter. And why does it help? Because there are so many people out there that devoted their times, lifes etc. to the music. And i think it doesn't matter what kind of music it is. Heh, and what is 'good' music? Or 'relevant' or 'revolutionary' music? Are we 'BOF's' entitled to definite this? Are we going still beyond our 'old and well known' borders? A lot of us (me included) think that The Fall are the best band in the world - and that since almost thirty years. That reminds me of that so called Dinosaur-bands (even when i know that there is a slight, but fine difference. Remember that are just a few heretical thoughts.). Can we look into the future to say there will be no new music that can shock us (seemingly no, but who knows?)? But it seems that we are all shocked enough when our kids doesn't listen to the music that we like. Why are we disgusted when the Industry uses Mr.Cash's versions of 'Hurt'? Hasn't the industry collected always all? Just remember Punk (just one example)! And why can we see/listen always oftener to advertisements using 'our' music -and that means not only 'Hurt', but also a lot of so called 'Indie, Altern., Electronic music which is more unknown than the Major Co. and Million Dollar man JC. For example I remember my astonishment of hearing a MÄRZ - track at an AD i forgot)? Because a lot of 'us' are working in those AD-companies - at least i think so. If such treasures - as LK said- like 'The Fisherman's Blues' - album will be reissued as a dluxe edition it is not necessary to look too pessimistic into the future or relevance of music. PS: Welcome JOHNB., it is nice to have another german located one on the board (and nice to read that you are not only a BB-fan, but also listen to 'KANTE'). And BTW:There exists a radio station in Germany which is worth to listen. RADIO EINS in Berlin. You can listen to it via Stream. Escpecially the programmes in the evening are fine shows. Check out Roots, Prime Cuts, Happy Sad or Ocean Club. You will not regret it. When John peel still lived he had a 2 hour show there too - and just notice the analogy of 'RADIO EINS' and 'RADIO 1'. | ||
| John B. Member Username: John_b Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2006 |
thanks Andreas, for the welcome, and the Kante gig was great... However, I doubt I will ever listen to Radio Eins because I hardly use the computer at home, it's enough sitting at one all day long at work. Yes, music will still matter to those who love it, but I fear that the number of those could drop due to the overkill. If you get everything served on a silver plate you will never cherish it in the same way Kevin discribed earlier. The gold old days were far more rewarding in that respect. |