| Author | Message | ||
     Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 3768 Registered: 05-2005 |
What the hell is happening? The level of public discourse seems to reach ever lower in recent years. The disrespect shown to opposing views is now so poisonous I don't know if I ever want to go back to America, and I love America. I lived there twice, visited there four other times and have travelled broadly from the north east to the deep south, from the west coast to close to the Canadian border. But it seems like the country I love is slipping away. Please tell me I'm wrong. Randy? Jeff? Michael? | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 3769 Registered: 05-2005 |
Or Allen or anyone else either of course! | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 3770 Registered: 05-2005 |
Go to 2.20 in this video to see Gabrielle Giffords talking about Sarah Palin marking her constituency with gun crosshairs on a website. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7046bo92 a4 | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 612 Registered: 04-2005 |
Difficult one to get to grips with here I think Pádraig! I imagine that the things that you love about America are still there, but the media chooses to disregard them entirely. For me the States have always been a huge paradox, brought home to me as a visitor to the Ellis island museum many years ago. Many of the stories of the appalling reception that the immigrants received were heart-breaking and I realized that (even then) it was about economics and any liberal caring notion of ‘Give me your huddled masses’ was all b***s***. And it is such a big country that is it realistic to speak of a “current mood” ? In the 80s at some point I spent a train journey in the UK with some college-age Texans, who asked me to explain the situation in Northern Ireland to them. After my potted history, one said to me in all seriousness ‘gee that’s terrible people bombing each other. We all get on together in America’. This was just a few weeks after serious race riots in LA. Before Obama got elected I had met a few Americans that had already moved or were considering moving to Europe. One told me ‘America is one of the last countries on earth you want to be in if everything collapses’. He believed it was going to happen. (And don’t get me started on the news about the “cleaned up” version of Huckleberry Finn) | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 2061 Registered: 01-2005 |
Padraig, It seems to me like America has slipped back into the early 1950's and the McCarthy era the last few years. It's the efforts to delegitamize and point fingers about the other side not being American enough or not one of us, and that's for the most part coming from the right from nutjobs like Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and others at Fox News or on right wing radio programs. It's the birther movement that continues to insist that Obama was not born in Hawaii, but in Kenya and therefore is not a US citizen or a legitimate President. It's the tea party and it's Republican spokesperson from Minnesota (US Congresswoman) Michelle Bachmann who expresses that certain Democratic congressmen should be investigated for un-American beliefs. Both elected sides in Washington don't communicate with another with enough civility or hang out afterhours. They shout from the rafters instead at the President, "You lie". They cheer on some angry mob types at anti-health care rallies. And Beck and Limabugh spew hate and vitriol that justs ratchets it up enough for a disturbed person to go the extra step. And to make matters worse, the gun lobby has made it easy enough for a that person to buy a gun legally and shoot 20 people at a town hall meeting, opening up only four feet away from his Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. The Republican leaders are going to need to stand up to Limbaugh and the rest to cut out the vitriol and tone it down. Up to this point, they have not due to Limbaugh's power and sway over the electorate. Someone needs to stand up Limbaugh, Palin, Beck and their ilk if they don't tone it down and duplicate this famous moment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqQD4dzVk wk | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2553 Registered: 03-2005 |
I'm old enough to be able to say this. When the economy goes down the dumper, the worst comes out in people. And like clockwork, every single time people start picking on the immigrants. People just carp at each other and attack each other. It's hardly unique to the States. I've been watching the events in Europe and some of the rhetoric coming from some of the politicians there and the reluctance to acknowledge that the boats of all the countries there either float or sink together. At the moment, people are feeling a little less European and a little more Italian or German or whatever. Harder times test us. Assuming we come through, we come through better. For myself, I tend to turn a bit inward and take pleasure in the things that I value regardless of what's going on outside me. Such as all the wonderful new Go Betweens and Triffids videos on YouTube now. My songwriting is getting better. I've gone back to reading some of my favorite literature. I drive my silly impractical obsolete cars when traffic is light. And I keep an eye on my friends and family, steeling myself for those times when I'll have to reach out and help. If you think the U.S. is going through something bad now, I recommend that you study the 1960s when so many assassinations occurred and major urban riots marked a surprising number of the years of that decade. Turbulence is not new here and however ugly it may seem now, it's nowhere near its worst. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 2020 Registered: 09-2006 |
Read Padraig's question before going to bed, pondered a reply a bit as I was drifting off, woke to find that y'all had said it all so very well. All I can add from what I was musing on last night was remembering a brief article months ago mentioning how conservative radio pundit Glenn Beck had counseled his listeners to not go on a crazed shooting spree, as it would delegitimise their movement. As the article pointed out, what other group would actually have to feel the need to warn its members against doing such a thing? I agree with Randy that the economy has a large amount to do with it, also (though it's constantly, rabidly denied) the fact of the first black president has brought a huge amount of festering gunk to the surface. Though my cynical side has certainly gotten a workout over these last few years, I definitely lean more toward's Randy's very well-written piece. My wife had a very nice phone conversation with her dad yesterday. He's career military, and their relationship has been contentious on many points for many years. He's begun to mellow quite a bit lately, though, and the subject of the Arizona shootings actually brought them to a place where they were communicating on a deeper level than they had for a long time. It was heartening to hear about. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 3771 Registered: 05-2005 |
Thanks for the thoughtful answers lads. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 2062 Registered: 01-2005 |
I think Randy hit some familiar tones that all of us turn to in times like these. I'll listen to more music as well or take a walk or watch a good movie rather then blast off some inflamatory comment on Facebook. Allen as well brought up another avenue that we turn to (family talks in times of shock or grief). On a positive note, it's nice to see that Roger Alles (Fox News head) has instructed his hosts to tone down their over-the-top rhetoric. On the left Keith Olbermann of MSNBC will stop naming his three "Worse Persons In The World" towards the end of his Monday thru Friday broadcasts. Those are both positive steps as I see it. I would hope the politicians who have faned the flames the past few years will follow suit. Michele Bachmann's statement that she wants Minnesota voters "armed and dangerous" has no place in political discourse. Similar type statements of "second ammendment solutions"(taking up arms against the government if the Tea Party types don't get their way) from the right are also out of line. I'm glad that Nevada voters saw that as well this past November and defeated the Republican US Senate candidate, Sharon Angle, who was talking about "second ammendment solutions". Words do matter and candidates need to be held accountable. For the life of me I can't understand why anyone outside of the military or local law enforcement would need to own a 33 round clip magazine for a Glock or similiar machine pistol (like the psychopath in Arizona used). And yet the NRA will not back down on this issue and they still insist that these clips be made available to the average citizen. The NRA states they are neccesary in the event of a riot (which last happened in 1992 in Los Angeles). Isn't a ten round clip enough for a store owner in a riot situation to protect their establishment or the homeowner wanting to defend his or her house from an intruder? How many of these mass killings have happened since the assualt gun ban expired in 2004? Too many in my book. I'm not against gun ownership for those that are qualified to own one as long as it is not an assault type gun or something that has more then a 10 round clip. I'm a fishing type dude and not a hunter, and yet I would bet that most hunters would agree with me and see no need to own such a gun with a 33 round clip as was used this past weekend on the twenty people in Tucson. | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 614 Registered: 04-2005 |
At least someone is making a good profit from all this... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan /12/gun-sales-rise-arizona-shooting Michael, I am interested to know why you believe an individual needs a gun at all? Outside of arguments about Constitutional Rights, I imagine that the response will be 'to defend myself against all the others with guns'? | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2558 Registered: 03-2005 |
Andrew, the majority of the people in this country have no conceivable need for a gun. None. And we'd be much better off if they didn't have them. I used to have a colleague at work who bought a gun when he was about 60 or so, in response to the Los Angeles riots of 1992. He's a weedy little guy, borderline alcoholic, who lives by himself in a placid community with a very low crime rate. I thought it was absurd for him to a buy a gun and told him so. I told him it was more likely that he'd find himself on the wrong end of the thing. But the U.S. is a very big country with some incredibly wide open spaces where a gun is simply a necessary tool, to ward off wildlife and--yes--possibly the occasional human threat where calling the sheriff means they'll make it there in 45 minutes. In the rural areas, not having a firearm or two would be negligence. I'd like it if the issue of gun control were honestly and seriously devolved to the states. In some states, strict control is the only rational choice. In others, strict control doesn't make so much sense. This bizarre rash of people buying these huge mass-killing guns makes me think of the insistence on the part of some people to go out and get pit bulls after a well-publicized mauling of a person by a pit bull. I can only attribute it to sheer bloody-mindedness. Some people are screwed up in the head. It's all about "rebellion" to them regardless of how asinine. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 2067 Registered: 01-2005 |
Nice healing speech by Obama last night in Tucson. Andrew, Randy is spot on in his comments. Gun ownership in Montana, Idaho, North and South Dakota, and rural areas in Colorado, Iowa, New Mexico, Texas and Arizona is pretty high I would bet for ranchers and farmers. The NRA is a really powerfull organization and won't back don't one inch regarding the availability of the most insane guns and ammunition clips to just about anyone. They hold sway over a large portion of the electorate and have huge dollars to campaign against any elected official who chooses to oppose them. The psychopath in Tucson used a Glock 19 machine pistol that held over 30 bullets, and he bought it legally in Arizona. In Virginia it's even worse as a person can buy a whole trunkfull of assault weapons at a gun show without even going thru a serious background check! Here in Michigan and also in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin (and to a lesser degree some of the other nearby states), deer hunting is big thing come November, so a lot of folks own rifles even if they live in the burbs. I've never gone out deer hunting or bird hunting and don't plan on ever doing so. |