| Author | Message | ||
     Cichli Suite Member Username: Cichli_suite Post Number: 111 Registered: 08-2004 |
I was going to post this in the REM thread but then realised I had gone completely off-topic (in the off-topic section too). Charles suggested that REM's Perfect Circle sounds like 'Prepare Ye The Way For The Lord' Although I'm not familiar with the song, it sounds like a good old-fashioned protestant hymn or gospel tune. I really like the fact that REM may have based one of their best songs on an old gospel melody. A few years ago I became obsessed with identifying the sources behind Dylan's early work. In those days, as is fairly acceptable in the folk tradition, he would take a folk or blues melody and write his own song around it. In many cases, the original song he based it on can be detected. It amazes me that in the rock idiom today this is really not acceptable, especially since you are likely to be sued. However, I reckon Dylan still works like that. For example, there was some controversy that many lyrics on 'Love and Theft' appeared to come from Confessions of a Yakuza: A Life in Japan's Underworld, a Japanese book written by Junichi Saga. The author was enormously flattered, by the way. I guess Dylan's view is that creativity involves some 'love' as well as 'theft'. The point I'm making is that I think this is a valid way of working, and that there is too much emphasis placed on the concept of 'originality' at a purely structural level (chords, lyrics, melody) and not enough at the level of mood, texture, feel - all the hard to pin down features that make a great song. An Indian (east) friend of mine told me that love and theft is such an integral part of the popular music scene in India, that often several versions of basically the same melody are released by different artists. It's not considered plagiarism just a normal part of the music business. It's interesting how this folk idea transferred into the popular mainstream music industry in India but not in the West. Jesus, but I do go on. Anyway, does anyone have other examples where the 'influences' behind the song are clearly audible? And is it 'love' or is it 'theft'? | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 364 Registered: 05-2005 |
Sorry I'm lost... | ||
| Cichli Suite Member Username: Cichli_suite Post Number: 113 Registered: 08-2004 |
Yeah, maybe I shouldn't post so early in the morning after a sleepless night... | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 333 Registered: 03-2005 |
One question, Cichli: are you including the use of samples in your concept? This came up recently for me with Jens Lekman who appears to use samples so liberally that I am beginning to suspect that everything about his music I originally liked is just pinched from someone else. One of the reasons nobody objects to the use of old melodies or lyrical ideas in one of the traditional music areas is because everybody understands that this is what is being done AND is how the music became traditional in the first place. With pop music, there is no such understanding and I think folks might be given credit for creativity they have not accomplished. Once it's discovered, the audience feels a little bit cuckolded. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 323 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cichli, Maybe it's the big fatty I just smoked (kidding), but I understand your post completely and even agree with it. I'm a big Dylan buff and I remember that little tempest in a teapot when L&T came out...as I remember, the "evidence" was pretty damning - some of the lifted passages were pretty much verbatim. But nothing came of it, Zimmy didn't get in trouble (maybe money was exchanged "under the table" for all we know) and your take on the whole thing is right, I think. Who gives a rat's ass if he appropriated a few lines? It's still a work of penetrating genius - it's just a monster album, as far as I'm concerned. I remember, too, getting Harry Smith's American Anthology of Folk Music (heard it? it's great) and realizing with glee who many lyrical turns of phrase Dylan had "liberated" from those songs of the "weird, old America" (Greil Marcus' description)...I forget them all, but one that comes to mind is 'railroad wine'...thought Bob had made that up, but nope - it's in one of those old songs by old Blind Lemon Pie, or whoever... And on "originality", you're competely right, too...in terms of musical structure, there really is nothing new under the sun, and it's extremely naive to think so...it's all in how it's put together that some originality, some artistic expression (cornball phrase) can be manifested. And any artist that thinks they're doing something 100% original, that no one's ever done before, is just clueless. I did think of a GBs example. According to the Nichols book, the chords to "Love Goes On" are a clever variation on an old doo wop song, though they didn't say which one... | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 325 Registered: 03-2006 |
ps - that should be "how many turns" above, not "who"...see? it's that fatty I smoked...actually, it's my fat fingers that can't type! | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 290 Registered: 04-2005 |
To oversimplify and perhaps totally miss your point, I think one simple factor is that the '50s/'60s folk songs (by Dylan and others) that were modeled on older melodies, chords, and even words were probably almost always in the public domain, so they were ripe for the picking. It gets more nebulous with copyrighted songs, hence ridiculous things like Harrison's "My Sweet Lord"/"He's So Fine" trial, which he lost. But so many melodies and chord progressions are blatantly stolen without legal action (witness Marvin Gaye's "Hitchhike"->Velvets' "There She Goes Again"->Edwyn Collins's "Magic Piper of Love.") It depends how litigious and small-minded the original composer/copyright holder is. Evidently Dylan respects the tradition of copping melodies, since Neil Young swiped the "My Back Pages" melody on one of the "Ragged Glory" songs and didn't get sued. Not to mention him lifting "Borrowed Tune" from a Stones melody. The Stones have certainly copped a few things in their time too... | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 330 Registered: 03-2006 |
There's a way too, where you can "steal", but it's so obvious, that it's more about giving props. I'm thinking of the Beach Boys touches in Back in the USSR...it's obvious that they're paying homage and the whole thing is still completely fresh and cool as can be.. | ||
| Cichli Suite Member Username: Cichli_suite Post Number: 114 Registered: 08-2004 |
Randy, Hardin, thanks for replying to my message. I yawningly started this thread this morning and it does seem a bit opaque. Hardin had a big fatty. What's you excuse, Randy? For me, one of the most irritating and downright misleading concepts in the music business is copyright. I understand that copyright is there to protect the artist (although, recording copyright seems to exist only to allow record companies milk the record buying public). However, in many respects it stifles creativity because it forces other artists to always start from scratch. If you copy a melody too closely, even if your song is completely different in every respect and a 100 times better than the original you may be liable. This goes against the way music has been made in the folk tradition and continues to be made in less 'lawyerly' societies. I, for one, would't feel cuckolded if the band/singer had done something really innovative with a previously recorded tune. Hardin - I love Harry Smith's anthology. So much of early Dylan's material can be found on it. Blind Lemon Pie?- isn't that the term the comedian Ricky Gervais uses for the blues ? Anyway, I've been really interested in the Creative Commons initiative in the music industry. Have you heard of it? Its a non-profit organisation that deals in alternative, flexible, copyright licenses for creative works. These licenses encourage artists to make something new of existing work, without having to pay exorbitant fees or without being sued. Last year, an edition of Wired Magazine came with a CD of artists offering some work under a creative commons license. http://creativecommons.org/wired/ So, hypothetically, if these type of licenses became more widespread I could take that crappy Mariah Carey song whose melody I kind of like, and sample it, resample it, turn it inside out and up side down and come up with a work of total genius. ok, I did say 'idealised'. Hardin, I read somewhere that the author of the book that 'influenced' Dylan was just too chuffed to look for money. Wouldn't you be? | ||
| Cichli Suite Member Username: Cichli_suite Post Number: 116 Registered: 08-2004 |
Randy, I must listen to Jens Lekman. Are you against samples in general, or do you think his work really doesn't do enough with the samples to be really any good? | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 144 Registered: 02-2005 |
I remember reading an interview with Lou Reed twentysome years ago and he was asked about the then-new Dylan album, 'Down In The Groove.' He said that there was always something to die for on a Dylan album and commented on the song 'Ninety Miles An Hour (Down A Dead End Street)' saying he'd kill for a line like that. A few weeks later I was watching a low-budget movie from the early-70's where that line was used and honestly, it could almost be an expression in common usage (Lou wouldn't know about that, being a completely anti-social b*st*rd). But the point is, Dylan always takes things out of the air... it doesn't make him any less of a genius in my estimation. | ||
| Charles Member Username: Charles Post Number: 13 Registered: 04-2006 |
Perhaps it's just conditioning but I often get a little bothered when I hear a melody for the first time that sounds ripped off. I think a skillful appropriation of a tune will not draw instant refenence to its source, especeally if the new song is equally good or better. A good example is Fight Test by the Flaming Lips off Yoshimi. I knew I'd heard that tune before, but being so engaged by the new song, it took a while to recognise it's origins in Cat Stevens Father And Son. So I can enjoy the song with out being bothered. A song like Heaven Is A Place On Earth, which I think the writers got done for, for plagurising Living On A Prayer, for me drew no imidiate reference to Bon Jovi. Such a ruling seems truly against the spirit of art. It's not as if the guys from BJ needed the cash or had any artistic credibility to protect. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 270 Registered: 08-2004 |
It's a question of progress, good or bad. The Jam's Start & Taxman. Sex Pistols & The Jam's In The City. The Cutter & Matthew & Son & that Coldplay song. Computer Love & Coldplay again. (I think Kraftwerk get credit for that melody) These things are gonna happen, since a lot of bands learn to play by copying other songs. Where they are unable to play the parts exactly it can become an individual work in it's own right. John Fogerty was once upon a time sued for plagiarising one of his old Creedence tunes. They actually tried to stop him from sounding like himself!!! Mind you that's probably not the point of this thread, off & off again. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 333 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cichli, I would be well chuffed if I were the Japanese guy, but I dunno, greed might take over...Dylan has more money than God. I'm just a working stiff (prick) trying to eke out a living in So Cal. Bet he's not driving a '99 Cherokee. The anthology is indeed great..is that where I got that from? Ricky Gervais? lol He's brilliant, possibly the funniest human on the planet. Is he revered and adored across the Pond? Damn well should be. Not possessing the encyclopedic minds of some on this site, I can never remember the name of all those great old artists - that seemed a good approximation. Ray Davies actually plagiarized his own work, too, but at least he didn't get sued. His "Destroyer" carbon copies the riff from "All Day and All of the Night". They're still both great songs. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 336 Registered: 03-2005 |
Oooh, Hardin, do you and I have a different opinion on "Destroyer". I just touched on that subject on another thread. Cichli, I do not object to samples when they are themselves used as small increments to create a new whole. While I'm not a hiphop fan, from time to time in public I'll hear a hiphop record that almost exclusively uses samples to achieve a brilliantly new soundscape and I wish I could tune out the bore who is blathering all over the top of the mix. Sorry, I can't name an example because I never bother to find out what it is but this happens often enough to clearly validate the use of samples for making music. I haven't had the heart to replay "Oh you're so silent Jens" because "Black Cab" uses a loop of a harpsichord riff that's about 8 seconds long from Left Banke's "I've Got Something on My Mind" and uses it all the way through the song until he finally interposes a middle eight using samples from Belle & Sebastian's "Mary Jo." On "Maple Leaves," he uses the string quartet intro from Left Banke's "Walk Away Renee" all through the song. I'm afraid that if I replay the CD, I'll confirm my nagging suspicion that the electric 12-string on "I Saw Her in the Anti War Demonstration" which I originally found charming is actually Roger McGuinn's "Tambourine Man" intro with the first few notes cut off. And right now I just don't want to know that. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 605 Registered: 05-2005 |
I know this is not what Chichli intended this thread to be about, but I listened to Dylans Love and Theft today in anticipation of his new album, Modern Times, due the end of this month. I didnt like Love and Theft when it first came out, I think its sounds even worse now. Worryingly(for me anyway)any reviews I have read of the new album have been very positive, but mention that it sounds very like Love and Theft. Oh Well. | ||
| Cichli Suite Member Username: Cichli_suite Post Number: 134 Registered: 08-2004 |
Don't worry, Kevin, I'm all for recycling old threads. I must say I like 'Love and Theft', though not as much as Time out Of Mind. Where have you read reviews of Modern Times? I haven't been able to find any. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 607 Registered: 05-2005 |
there are reviews in Uncut and Mojo cichli. Uncut gave it a glowing 5/5. while mojo didnt officially review it, there was a page and a half,track by track preview by "esteemed Dylan critic" Robert Hilburn(?) that laeft you in no doubt it was fantastic. to quote the piece "its his most anticipated albums since 1974's BOTT,and calm down everyone,its brilliant" | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 502 Registered: 03-2006 |
I am definitely in Cichli's court on this one - I think L&T and "Time" are among Zimmy's best work and have a hard time choosing which is best...I am very pleased to hear the new one's getting such great advance notices..Say, you probably ALREADY have a copy, huh Kev?  | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 608 Registered: 05-2005 |
Fraid not LK, and if its similar to Love and Theft I'm not exactly craving it. As I said in another thread I have been so wrong about records in the past its embarrasing, so given that you have such impeccable taste I am going to play Love and Theft (and Ray Lamontagne) solidly for the next week in the hope I get some kinda road to Damascus conversion | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 503 Registered: 03-2006 |
A week may not be long enough...Seriously, our differences in opinion about those two may come down to our different opinions about the singer-songwriter thing in general, and overemphasis on lyrics specifically...I am, as has been noted here, a "lyrics guy" and you have allowed as how they're not particularly important to you... And I completely understand your abhorrence for that genre that is quickly becoming known as "mom rock", but I think Ray Lamontagne is many notches above that. Btw, there IS an artist that I believe is worse than Bluntie: have you heard Five For Fighting? Sheer f-ing torture! | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 610 Registered: 05-2005 |
LK, Luckily, if his (their?) website is any indication, I have not heard Five For Fighting. Mom Rock? You'll need to expand on that one. is that "artists" like Blunt, Jack Johnston et al? | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 505 Registered: 03-2006 |
Exactly, mom rock = James Blunt, et al...you name it - the Goo Goo Dolls, Rob Thomas, etc... Five for Fighting's first big hit (at least here) was "Superman", which was extraordinarily gloopy, sappy and came out just after 9/11, when I guess folks were in the mood for that sort of thing...you possibly heard it - the chorus goes something along the lines of, "more than a bird, more than a plane" and the singer, for some inexplicable reason, swoops in and out of falsetto...mere words don't do justice to the atrocity it is...one of those things where I have to throw my hands up and sigh, "I have no idea what people see in this". | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 457 Registered: 05-2005 |
Mom rock! I love it! What a great term of abuse! | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 358 Registered: 08-2004 |
Five For Fighting are dreadful, anyone heard The Riddle, if you've heard bad things about them you can multiply it x1000 & it still doesn't do them justice. Listened to Love & Theft yeaterday & though I like it, I prefer Bob more down-trodden. There's a lot of playful stuff on L&T he sounds too happy. Time Out Of Mind is brilliant with only a little of the tongue in cheek stuff. Maybe he hit the perfect balance with Things Have Changed, misery & joy rolled into one. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 513 Registered: 03-2006 |
5 for Fighting: an equal opportunity band - everybody can hate them with impunity! There's nothing worse than fake, overwrought sensitivity...that was one of the things that was so great about the 'Tweens: they could be touching and emotional without veering into icky sentimentality.... It's a tough contest for me, Jerry, as I think both L&T and "Time" are quantum masterpieces. L&T probably edges out Time slightly, because of its rowdy, bantam rooster fighting spirit...if Time was a mortality record, then L&T was an IMmortality record that seems like Dylan saying to his naysayers, "fuck you, I'm here to stay"...it has too many great lines to easily absorb, too. Every time I listen to it, I hear something new and great. But, I think my favorite lines are the one that goes something like, "She says, 'You can't repeat the past', I say, 'What do you mean you can't? Of course, you can!'" and the one that goes, "I'm not sorry we fought, just sorry we lost"...those, to me, are very inspiring and moving. You know how in old fight movies the grizzled manager would say about some underdog fighter that, "the kid has a lot of heart"? L&T has "heart" in the same way... Sound like I'm a big Dylan fan? Put it this way: I am seriously psyched for the new one. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 617 Registered: 05-2005 |
LK, you might be interested to know that a guy called Hardin Smith who has incredibly similar tastes to yourself voted Love and Theft as his "album of the decade so far" on this very site a few months ago. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 514 Registered: 03-2006 |
Sounds like that sucker has good taste! Only problem is, his "album of the decade" is different every time you ask him... Another thing about L&T: it must be a great record to have overcome possible bad associations people might have had with the day it was released here: 09/11/01. |