| Author | Message | ||
     spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 713 Registered: 05-2005 |
Hi, not wishing to forget the anniversary on the msg board and especially for all our Americans on the board, Spence. | ||
| jerry hann Member Username: Jerry_h Post Number: 224 Registered: 07-2005 |
Heard from a relative that there is a conspiracy theory that the events of 9/11 are not due to fundamentalist but basically some CIA plot, sound quite far fetched to me but there was a website with a documentary on it.Is this thinking the unthinkable.I'm not a conspiracy theorist but what I heard was interesting. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 738 Registered: 03-2006 |
Hard to believe that was 5 years ago, isn't it? Nice thought, Spence. I've read some of the conspiracy stuff about 9/11, Jerry, and it is fascinating - some of it's even fairly plausible. But I'm like you, Jerry, I don't jump to conspiracy theories readily...for one thing, the government's not that smart or capable! I haven't been able to catch the whole thing, but I watched some of Spike Lee's excellent doc on Katrina on HBO...in it, he interviews some people who think the govt. blew up the levees in N.O.! | ||
| Cichli Suite Member Username: Cichli_suite Post Number: 159 Registered: 08-2004 |
I was so upset on that day, I rang up an old (american) girlfriend and apologised for having been a cad all those years ago. The poor woman didn't know quite what to make of me! Everything seemed so bloody pointless for months after that: music, books, films. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 555 Registered: 04-2005 |
Thanks, Spence. I don't even know what to say about 9/11 anymore. The initial feelings of horror and shock over the attacks have long since been replaced by horror and shock at what our country has done in the name of 9/11. I don't want to get into a long political diatribe, but for me, today is more a day to remember how much we've lost in the world community (and many other ways) since 9/11/01. As for conspiracy theories, they're interesting but a little hard to buy, even for someone like me with no trust at all of my government. But what's fascinating is that in a recent Scripps-Howard poll, 36% of Americans suspected the government had some role in the 9/11 attacks, be it actually an "inside job" or just letting it happen even though the terrorist plot was detected. It's staggering to think a third of Americans may now suspect their government of involvement. For at least two years after the attacks, just to whisper such a thing was viewed as treason in this country. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 743 Registered: 03-2006 |
The 36% stat is fascinating, Kurt...I think it gives testament to the fact that even Joe Sixpack is starting to realize how much the current administration gained politically from 9/11, and how, sickeningly, they have used fearmongering to gain political advantage...every time there has been a reversal in popularity, they trot out a new terror alert... And, in addition to the very real loss of standing in the world, there's all the stuff on the homefront we've lost, too...the incursions into civil liberties, etc... Yikes, if my calls weren't being "monitored" and my emails being read before, I bet they are now! | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 560 Registered: 04-2005 |
Yeah, I was going to write "loss of civil liberties," but held back. You're right, we're busted. You can be sure the feds are monitoring the Go-Betweens message board! My high school senior nephew told me that a local WA senator who's running for reelection next week will be speaking to his class today or tomorrow. He plans to ask her tough questions about why she as a Democrat supported the war in Iraq, Bush's homeland security bill, etc. I told him that he will get shushed quickly and it's guaranteed the FBI will start a dossier on him. Probably not true, but that's the kind of paranoia our lovely current administration has inspired in this country. | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 180 Registered: 04-2006 |
a terrible day this was. regardless if it was done by religious fanatics or -if you belive in conspiracy theories- the govt. has do to with. in one way they have - somehow or other. but all those deads. those pictures are unforgettable. for days i can't get my eyes from the pictures on tv and in the papers. it was so unbelievable. it is still. what happened since then is unbelievable too. bush and blair as crusaders - and much more unnecessary deads. | ||
| jerry hann Member Username: Jerry_h Post Number: 225 Registered: 07-2005 |
We all remember what we were doing when the twin towers were struck,It's a defining moment. What has struck me and has been uplifting is/was the spirit of the people of New york it did seem to bring out the better parts of us. The rhetoric of our leaders Blair and Bush has alienated a significant portion of the world and only made the fundamentalists stronger in their beliefs. But today we remember the lives lost. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 561 Registered: 05-2005 |
I was not working on that day, having worked the previous weekend. I was about to go out with my partner to buy a stroller for our soon-to-arrive baby. Just before leaving I got a news text message on my phone that a plane had crashed into the World Trade Center. "Some idiot in a light aircraft," I thought. But I turned on the TV anyway, just in time to see the second plane crash into the second tower. My immediate thought (and this is not selective recall) was "That's it, America is at war". September 11 is my father's birthday. It's also my partner's sister's birthday. And our daughter was born four days after 9/11. We never did get that stoller in time for the birth. | ||
| Jonathan Evans Member Username: Jon Post Number: 30 Registered: 04-2005 |
Whatever the cause, and who was responsible for it, the loss of human life is tragic. What makes me a little annoyed (probably not the right word), is that 4000 people in NY seem more important than 12-15000 people in Bopal, India! Have any of you seen a film called "The greatest lie ever Sold" it suggests its an inside job, interesting at least. Peace to all. Cheers Jon | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 542 Registered: 03-2005 |
Sigh. I sign on with the comments of Kurt and Hardin. We were already sliding there anyway, but the reactionary forces unleashed by 9/11 formalized our status as Imperial Rome. I was driving to work when the first tower was hit listening to Pacifica radio. I didn't get it at all; I thought it was some kind of HG Wells thing. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 183 Registered: 01-2005 |
I can take some solitude with living in Michigan and both our US Senators, Carl Levin and Debbie Stabanow, voted against going to war in Iraq. Shook and Awe? More like Revolting and Disgust in my book. I can't wait for the Dems to take over Congress and hold that cannine excrement excuse for a President accountable for his lies, abuse of the law and Katrina via the power of the subpoena!!! Sorry for getting on my soapbox. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 746 Registered: 03-2006 |
Tell it, Michael, tell it! Randy, you're an attorney, ain't ya? Will you represent us all when we get taken in for "questiioning"? Katrina - man, don't get me started. I think it proved to the hoi polloi here, and the world in general, that the current administration just doesn't know what the hell it's doing. There's a competence gap. In addition to being venal, greedy and cynical, they're simply incompetent. I had the same reaction as I think a lot of people did - this can't be happening in America. The horror was compounded for me because a lot of the areas shown were my old stomping grounds - the Superdome, Convention Ctr., Canal St., etc...there's no question that if it had happened, say, here in OC, full of affluent white people, the response would've have been much different. Did you guys overseas watch all that while it was happening? What was your reaction? It must have seemed equally unbelievable to you.... | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 182 Registered: 04-2006 |
more than unbelievable. a big city(which i visited twice) drowned (and not to forget the people living in the city). maybe gone forever. nobody can imagine that, but it was reality. yes, hardin due to the multimedia world in which we live i watched the horror all day. what is also frightening is that the next hurricane could be the final stroke. i am very curious of the spike lee film. hope to see it soon here in germany. and jonathan, you are absolutely right. that has a lot to do with the arrogance of the so called 'first world' against the so called 'third world'. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 186 Registered: 01-2005 |
Spike Lee's documentary on Katrina is pretty powerfull stuff. It's been airing on HBO lately. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 717 Registered: 05-2005 |
yeah, now the day is over I feel more inclined to speak, the hypocricy of the us gov is unimaginable really. however it is real. without going into something that we could debate for a lifetime, I think the following: if terrorism is so bad, why did the US gov tolerate certain people within the US funding the IRA for so long? If it is now established that Sadaam was innocent of the charge, why don't the US and the rest of the occupation retreat, its already enough of a mess that'll never get any better whilst they are there? Why has the US Gov not invaded North Korea, surely thay pose much more of a threat to their neighbours as well as the world than Sadaam ever did? Why has the US gov not gone for other obvious so called fascist dictatorships/regimes in the Congo for instance, where the genocide still goes on? we all know the answer don't we? here endeth my political entry on the msg board, don't like the politics to interfere with the music... | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 570 Registered: 04-2005 |
You got it, Spence. Terrorists and dictators are fine, as long as they're our terrorists and dictators. Of course, Saddam was once ours, and look how that turned out. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 750 Registered: 03-2006 |
A little politics is ok every now and then, Spence. And I agree with you, too...What else is funny is that, though they're denying it now, a lot of what they used to sell the war was the supposed connection between Saddam and Al Queada, which of course, never existed. Btw, I am not ashamed in any way to be an American and don't apologize for Bush - I didn't vote for that ignorant boob (neither did more than half the country first time round, I might add)...but I gotta say, everyone else on the board has been mighty gracious and welcoming to us Americans when, God knows, you have reason not to be. Thanks for that! | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 572 Registered: 04-2005 |
Hardin makes a good point that I've been thinking about too. Our country's leaders have been misbehaving for so long that a lot of us are really self-conscious of how we're viewed in the world. I'm not ashamed to be an American, but believe me, a lot of us would like our country back. To tell you the truth, I was a little afraid to jump into this message board when I first discovered it because I thought it might be hostile to Americans. Thanks for proving me wrong! | ||
| Jonathan Evans Member Username: Jon Post Number: 33 Registered: 04-2005 |
Kurt I can only speak for myself, but I've got nothing against Americans, only that they vote in morons. In the UK though, we haven't got too much to gloat about, we thought we'd done well, but its all gone tits up! Cheers Jon | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 544 Registered: 03-2005 |
We do have to live with the fact that something like 50% of the U.S. electorate voted for Bush in 2004 after it had been provided an ample demonstration of the qualities of himself and his administration. A zillion years ago I read something by Christopher Isherwood which I've always held onto as a personal guiding hope. He wrote that the U.K. during its last years of Empire was characterized by an insular and narrow-minded populace. He abandoned the country to live in Weimar Germany and then in the U.S. after Germany became untenable. But by the 1960s, on a returning visit to the U.K., he found that the public attitude had changed enormously and entirely for the better. I always marvel at the seeming congenital interest in other parts of the world evidenced by the BBC and Guardian. I contrast that with the total nationalistic narcissism and informational vacuum provided by all of the U.S. media including the vaunted NYT and think of Isherwood's story. I hope that when the U.S. has exhausted its self-proclaimed "global hegemon" status a similar transformation will occur. The only question is how thoroughly our collective ass has to be kicked before that happens. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 719 Registered: 05-2005 |
I think the Internet has made many of us realise that we're pretty much the same, whatever colour or nationality, that's cool by me. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 389 Registered: 08-2004 |
It's not Americans that are the problem, only politicians, as long as you didn't become all nationalist & vote the idiot back in. It's OK to remember the tragedy of 9/11, but the news coverage over here has been notoriously OTT. Quite why one tragic act of terrorism is so important compared to all others is beyhond me. The first attack on American soil for 50+ years & it's also the most publicised. It was very shocking as the events unravelled, even more so what followed. Within a month a full scale attack on Afghanistan made it seem pre-empted. What's worse, there seems to be no end. Hopefully after 5 years there will be less reflecting on the past & less imposing "FREEDOM" on the rest of the world. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 190 Registered: 01-2005 |
One of the problems is who the money people back during the primary elections period. George W. Bush was not qualified to be President based on his poor skill set as a diplomat, his modus operandi on decision making, his lack of empathy, etc. While this might not have been cristal clear in 2000, it certainly was in 2004. The big money that backed him got much in return with relaxed emission standards for coal fired energy producers, starting a war for those fat no-bid military contracts, medical and drug industry mondo profits, etc. Until elections are goverment funded and campaign contributions are curtailed, the influence pedaling and bought elections will continue I'm afraid. It's up to the American voters to see through the fraud, but they get confused by those nasty 1 minute sound bite commercials, or garbage hack jobs like those Swift Boat liers. | ||
| Matthias Treml Member Username: Matthias Post Number: 131 Registered: 05-2005 |
I hate political discussions, it always polarizes people as much as religion. It colors my opinions on people and usually in the negative. I'm not thrilled with the U.S. goverment, the lobbyists, or the electoral process. I don't believe in parties and don't understand why the American people allow the two parties to dictate only a two political system. If I were republican, why can't I be pro-choice? If I desire to be environmental friendly, does that mean I have to be in the Green Party? If I believe in pro-choice but I'm anti-union or pro-capitalism, am I still a democrat? That said, do you feel that Gore would have done anything drastically different? Or Nader? The great thing (and sometimes the worst, if you believe that your strengths are also at times your weaknesses) about the US government is that it is designed with enough checks and balances that either party or an administration have a limited ability to change. Sure, some policies and court appointments (and therefore their decisions) can last for decades but relatively speaking, the pendulum swings back. To me, Randy has it spot on. The US is in transition and will become the next England as either China and India become the next ruler of the world. Randy's comments reminded me of a funny but appropriate acceptance speech at the Foreign Press Awards in 2004 by the Office's (UK version) lead actor, Gervais, who said, "Thanks! I'm from a little place called England. We used to rule the world before you." So hopefully, the US is on the cusp of a transformation in its foreign policy. That said, there is only one thing scarier than a dictator and that is a religious zealot. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 768 Registered: 03-2006 |
Mathhias, you make great points, but I gotta say, respectfully, that hell yeah Gore (who, let's face it, actually won in 2000) would've done things differently, in this way: he would've done them better. Say what you will about politics, values, etc., the thing is, the current administration is just not very competent. They, basically, can't do anything right. And, say what you will about some of the Dems that are easy targets for the Neocons, like Big Al, Bubba Clinton, and Hill, they knew things, they knew how stuff worked. Which stands in radical opposition to the current administration with its attitude of lazy, arrogant ignorance and its many failures of execution: the war, Katrina, the economy, homeland security. They, simply, don't know how to make stuff work. To criticize Al, people often call him a wonk. But wonks, by definition, know their politics, know how the world works. In fact, some people have theorized that the origin of the word is simply "know" spelled backwards. I used to think the system of checks and balances worked, but I dunno - some of this administration's imperial presidency grabs for power that goes beyond the constitution have left me wondering about that. Fortunately, their incompetence will probaby end up doing them in... Nader, now he's another story, which can be summed up in three words: "opportunistic little creep". | ||
| Matthias Treml Member Username: Matthias Post Number: 132 Registered: 05-2005 |
Oh Keith, see? Now politics have gotten in the way! We were so close in mindset (the lyric fanaticism, the similiar likes about the gobees songs or records... and now I must go dig out my Billy Bragg collection and look for "Greetings to new Brunette" and "Valentine's Day is Over." Damn. You're not really criticizing Gore though. You're paying him a very high compliment. BTW, what is a neocon? | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 770 Registered: 03-2006 |
Oh no, Matthias. Valentine's Day is most certainly not over. Our (very manly,non-dress wearin') love still burns brightly. Forgive me if that was too heavy-handed or contrary - I actually agreed with everything you said, in essence, just wanted to point out that, in my view, Gore would've done things differently. I forgot to mention, also, that he was against the war from the beginning. Neocon is short for neo, or new, conservative. I believe it, as a movement, started with the Reagan administration and has certainly been a guiding force in the current administration. Intelligent people might disagree about what the tenets of it, as a movement are, but in general they are basically more hard-core Republican, and less centrist. So, put away those Billy Bragg records and pull out the Barry White! | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 547 Registered: 03-2005 |
A few years ago I also found myself wondering what a neocon is. God bless Wikipedia! There's an exhaustive and precise definition. Apparently they're ex-communists! | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 195 Registered: 01-2005 |
Some political pundents actually see Gore on the rise! Speaking of Gore, I saw Detroit's own, The Gore Gore Girls last night as part of Little Steven's Rock and Roll Garage Band show. Think Joan Jett and The Blackhearts or The Runaways. The Woggles also played, great garage/punk band with a ton of energy! Best of all though,The Zombies was the headliner act, and Colin and Rod were in great form. Between acts, go-go girls danced on stage. A memorable night for sure! | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 779 Registered: 03-2006 |
So, I've heard too...btw, Gore's movie about global warming (nah, it doesn't exist at all - there's no such thing - never mind that most of this summer I could've fried a f-ing egg on the surface of my patio!), "An Inconvenient Truth", is excellent. Must viewing. Tell me more about the Little Steven thingie, Michael. That sounds great. If it's touring and comes anywhere near here, I must get off my arse and go see it! | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 197 Registered: 01-2005 |
Hardin, Four acts of Children of Nuggets style garage/punk acts plus The Zombies as the headliner act. The Woggles and The Zombies were the stars of the show. A couple of the acts are regional and rotate out once they are out of the region. Cheap $3.00 a bottle Rolling Rock beer with a free bandana for every purchase, as they are the major sponser of the tour. Well worth the $20.00 bucks, plus it didn't sell out for some reason, so I got my ticket at the door and avoided and surcharge. It was a ton of fun! Plus the go-go girls between acts. Quick band changes as well, as all the bands used the same drum set-up. http://www.littlesteven.com/rollingrock/indexa.html | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 780 Registered: 03-2006 |
Thanks, Mike...looking at the schedule, it appears that it's already passed through my part of the world. Ah, bugger. It would've been fun to see. I think go-go girls are a brilliant innovation. Every band should have them - they would've worked especially well with the GBs. The Rolling Rock sounded good, too...I drank so much of it for a time I got seriously burned out on it. But, I think enough time has passed to where I could've done some serious damage. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 550 Registered: 03-2005 |
Speaking of Gore's film, apparently John Howard dissed it in Oz. I didn't even know that Colin Blunstone and Rod Argent were touring! They did one fabulous album together in 2001 under their own names called "Out of the Shadows." Then they did another under the Zombies' name in 2004 which was a total piece of crap. At least that's what I thought when I gave it one whole listen. I suppose I should give it another try . . . . Go go dancers are a great idea. My vote is that they be of both genders so everyone can be entertained and be on the receiving end of "why can't you look like him/her?" | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 198 Registered: 01-2005 |
Randy, I'll have to check out "Out of the Shadows." Thanks for the tip. The bass player from Argent is also touring with them, and his son is the drummer! Anyone who doesn't own "Odyssey and Oracle" should go out right now and buy it! |