| Author | Message | ||
     Andy Robinson Member Username: Andyblue Post Number: 22 Registered: 03-2005 |
Well I can't think of one! A couple of the recent threads have made me think about artists who make giant leaps from total dross (im(your)ho)- I'm thinking of Johnny Cash from "A Boy Named Sue" to the whole American Ballads and Neil Diamond from "Songs Sung Blue" and "The Jazz Singer" to "Twelve Songs" which I really enjoying. I imagine we can all think of people that have gone completely the other way! | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 242 Registered: 04-2005 |
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, Andy--any combination of from good to bad to good? At the risk of totally misunderstanding what you were getting at, here are a few classic "went from good to bad" performers: Rod Stewart: The King of Lost Artistic Credibility for going from "Every Picture Tells a Story," "Maggie May," "You Wear It Well," etc., to "D'Ya Think I'm Sexy" and "Hot Legs" to the Great American Songbook. (good -> bad -> worse) Steely Dan: Went from quirky, mildly subversive jazz-influenced mainstream rock to Kenny G with lyrics. David Bowie: Almost beyond reproach up through "Scary Monsters" (although his earliest solo work wasn't so hot); almost without redemption artistically since. The Kinks: Great until "Muswell Hillbillies" then increasingly bad each album since, with a few songs here and there as exceptions. They lose bonus points for revealing bad politics in their career (Davies writing some borderline racist songs that may not have been entirely ironic, plus playing Sun City in the '80s). Bryan Ferry: From strange, original, even creepy stuff like "In Every Dream Home A Heartache" to the pathetic sub-greeting card banalities of all his solo albums after "Avalon." Artists who went from bad to good? That's tougher. I'd suggest: Yo La Tengo: Fairly tepid power-pop/VU lite when they started. Sonic Youth: Those early records, ugh. My Bloody Valentine: Took 'em awhile to find their sound. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 210 Registered: 03-2006 |
Andy, I've been racking my brain, trying to come up with examples of the phenomenon you describe...it really is pretty rare, it would seem. Most shitty artists start out shitty and stay that way, and with the great ones, you can see the seed of greatness in their early stuff, even if it takes them time to grow into it... I think the Neil Diamond example is a really good one, because I thought 12 Songs was outstanding...it was like, "Where the hell did that come from?". Robert Forster in an interview expressed his admiration for it. Disagree a little with the Johnny Cash one,though, because I think he's done quality stuff from the get-go. Boy Named Sue was just a novelty song, and not really typical... I don't care for them at all in any of their eras really, but apparently Ministry was quite the tepid little electro dance band when they started, yet they metamorphosed into something entirely different, if not necessarily better.... Flaming Lips, who I've yet to make up my mind on, seem to be doing a lot more substantive work these days than when they started...maybe they actually got better. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 236 Registered: 08-2004 |
Rolling Stones After Goat's Head Soup. When Mick Taylor went so did any artistic merit. They should have signed up Mick Ronson in the transfer window, he was out of contract after The Spiders let him go & he wasn't cup-tied. | ||
| Andy Robinson Member Username: Andyblue Post Number: 24 Registered: 03-2005 |
Yeah you're right about Johnny Cash, Hardin. I only really have begun to listen to him in the last few months when a friend recommended the American Recordings and since then I have begun to find more of the earlier better stuff. I was being facetious about him but not about Neil Diamond. Exactly right "Where did that come from?" I think I have mentioned elsewhere that while growing up I suffered from "father's bad country and western syndrome". To think my Dad spent some time in the US when younger and appreciated Hank Williams at the time. However, I guess that in the UK of the seventies little of the great man was available? Consequently I was brought up by a steady diet of Don Williams, Jim Reeves and Boxcar Willie. Pretty Damn scarey and something that left a lasting legacy. My reaction at the time was to drown out the bland by listening to dodgy British Heavy Metal bands. However I am in recovery now and I have begun to discover lots of real American (and British) roots music all of which is played and sung with passion. | ||
| Mark Leydon Member Username: Mark_leydon Post Number: 50 Registered: 05-2005 |
Nick Cave. Used to like the Birthday Party. But Cave has become a preposterous goth caricature. If I never hear another of his overwrought biblical dirges again it will be too soon. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 30 Registered: 09-2006 |
Strongly agreed with all of your good-to-bad picks, Kurt, though I think Fagen came back strong with his first couple solo records and the first SD Mach II album. Of them all I think Davies is the greatest tragedy. Hardin, I agree about Ministry's early days but find their four-album renaissance (From "Land of Rape and Honey" (yeah, unfortunate, deliberately "offensive" title) through "Psalm 69" irresistable. Their live album especially...like being ganged up on and bludgeoned by a guitar and synthesizer and loving every second of it. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 31 Registered: 09-2006 |
The only thing I don't like about this board is the inability to go back and edit posts (that and that you can't italicize things...makes distinguishing between album and song titles a little easier)...the parentheses section of the previous post should've read: (From "Land of Rape and Honey" [yeah, unfortunate, deliberately "offensive" title] through "Psalm 69") irresistable. Everybody probably got that, but just making sure. Then again, I COULD just make sure it's all right before hitting the "Post Message" button... | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 823 Registered: 03-2006 |
It's funny how some of you newer guys are resurrecting some of these moldy oldie threads, then we codgers who've been here a while have to figure out what the fruck we were going on about... My intent was not really to champion Ministry, though I do understand their appeal, though they honestly, kind of scare me. I actually saw them live once (long story) at Lollapalooza and I have to admit they were pretty entertaining though...I think I was just holding them up as an example of a group that has, by apparent critical consensus, "gotten better"... I think if I were 16 again, though, I'd be a rabid fan of them and Marilyn Manson...but alas, I'm fat and forty(ish), to use the Sex Pistols' great phrase, so it's the GBs for me, and other gentle things that won't upset my delicate nerves, while I sip my Earl Grey tea....no moshing, but if the spirit moves me I close my eyes and sway gently, being careful not to pull my cardigan... | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 585 Registered: 03-2005 |
You up to forty Hardin or is that just for poetic effect? If so, welcome to middle age. It only gets worse. It is amazing how Ministry went from 'Work for Love" to "NWO." I used to love them and probably could still listen to them now. Allen, do you know that you can endlessly edit your posts before you hit the final "Post this Message" button by using the second, lower window below the main window (labeled "Revise your Message") after the first time you hit "preview/post message?" Many apologies if I'm stating the obvious. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 826 Registered: 03-2006 |
Thanks for the kind words of encouragement, Randy. Yes, I'm as old as fuckin' dirt. This must be a sign of getting old - I have a few friends who are a couple of years older who are always saying somebody is "our age"...I'm always like, "what's this 'our age' shit, you fucking codger".... | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 32 Registered: 09-2006 |
No, not stating the obvious, just pointing me toward something that should have been painfully obvious...part of my personal aging process (yeah, I'm mid-40s as well) is an ever-increasing absent-mindedness and ignorance of what's right in front of me... Never moshed to Ministry, Hardin, but it's still great listening, and I've danced to it often in the presence of just me, myself and I. I end up bathed in sweat and almost delirious. | ||
| jerry hann Member Username: Jerry_h Post Number: 238 Registered: 07-2005 |
In my job there are some people who are 30 going on 50 and some who are 40 but look and act younger, not in a adolescent sort of way but outlook.I guess it is attitude of mind and how much you abuse your body ( fags, drugs and alcohol) I try to be like that though I'm 42 and still do all the things I did as when I was younger though can't run a 10k as quickly. In fact I had to pull up a couple of our younger docvtors in the practice who presented a man as middle age when he was only 44,Hey I'm not middle age, not yet anyway | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 229 Registered: 01-2005 |
I'll chrip in with Til Tuesday/Aimee Mann. Voices Carry from 1985 was okay for the time period. Welcome Home from 1986 had a couple of songs that hinted at Aimee's talent. Everything's Different Now from 1988 was a quantum leap in songwriting. Her first couple of solo albums in the mid 90's, Whatever and I'm With Stupid are also peak Aimee. I have been a little dissapointed with her last couple though. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 828 Registered: 03-2006 |
Do they run the comic strip, "Peanuts", in the UK? They must,huh? There's a classic running gag in it, where Lucy keeps tempting Charlie Brown to kick a football that she is going to hold for him. She always pulls it away at the last second, causing poor Charlie to go ass over teakettle. Yet, Charlie always falls for it... Some artists make me feel like that - and Aimee Mann is one of them. After those initial peaks she hasn't really produced anything capable of inducing the same thrill...yet I keep buyin' em... | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 231 Registered: 01-2005 |
Aimee has lost her sense of texture and tempo. She should get back with Jon Brion. | ||
| Matthias Treml Member Username: Matthias Post Number: 141 Registered: 05-2005 |
Aimee Mann's voice is grating. She's one I do not get at all. BTW, Kurt Bryan Ferry's Taxi is something to give another chance. A cover album where the covers are unrecognizable and spooky and cool. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 630 Registered: 04-2005 |
Aimee Mann is a good example; her initial '80s work didn't suggest anything but one-hit wonder, but she turned into an excellent songwriter. I'd agree that she peaked with "I'm With Stupid," which is an album I like a lot, and the only one of hers I enjoy from beginning to end, though she's always good for a few great tracks (esp. "Ghost World" from "Bachelor #2"). I find her voice gets a little wearing over the course of an entire album, and musically, she's blanded out a bit since "Stupid." That album had a great mix of sharp lyrics, contemporary beats, Beatlesque guitars, and melodies that were reminiscent of vintage Elvis Costello. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 774 Registered: 05-2005 |
I should've known was great, shoulda, coulda and all that... saw her live once with dave gregory playing lead guitar, and they extended it a the end like a verlaine/lloyd work out, it was wondeful, greory is a very overlooked guitarist, up there with the greats, like lloyd, quine, mould, ross etc | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 775 Registered: 05-2005 |
gregory from XTC by the way. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 632 Registered: 04-2005 |
Sadly, no longer part of XTC... | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 847 Registered: 05-2005 |
I have never knowingly heard any music by aimee mann. i dont feel deprived somehow. female songwriters have never done it for me aprt from PJ Harvey and Mary Margaret O'Hara. Where did all these females spring up from in the last 15 years? Before them there just seemed to be Joni Mitchell (if I have heard more than Little Yellow Taxi by her I am blissfully unaware), Kate Bush and Tracy Chapman. My guess is that most of these performers were signed by record companies hoping for the "new" Kate Bush (guess what?, I cant stand her) and this amounted to a deluge of crap. I'll get my crash helmet on the way out! | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 412 Registered: 08-2004 |
Alanis Morrisette is the catalyst, Kevin. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 635 Registered: 04-2005 |
You might not like them, Kevin, but what about Patti Smith and Chrissie Hynde? For they (along with others), paved the way for the great PJ, who's kind of a like a better cross between the two of them. One woman artist that you should check out if you've missed is Kristin Hersh (solo, Throwing Muses, and 50 Foot Wave). She is nothing like the ones you're on record as not liking. Original, tough-minded, tremendously talented as a musician, strange lyrics...to me, she's as much of a genius as PJ Harvey. (Stepping off soapbox.) | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 834 Registered: 03-2006 |
Sarah McLachlan is the Devil. | ||
| Andy Robinson Member Username: Andyblue Post Number: 50 Registered: 03-2005 |
LK, there's a TV show over here that's called Grumpy Old Men which is as it says a bunch of men of a certain age pontificating about the world in which we live (and I think a Grumpy Old Women too). It's all done in in a gentle ironic way with guys like Rick Wakeman who is a wonderful raconteur. Sometimes there's a sense that this board reflects some of that - are any of us under 40? Jerry, I agree about age. I was set up on a blind date a little while ago with a woman of 43 (I am 41) who had a son of 23 and I remember thinking he was almost my age! In other ways, though, I think that I was always too grown up. I don't think I've ever run 10 K though! | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 636 Registered: 04-2005 |
Andy, I know what you mean about thinking someone in his twenties is your age. I suffer from that problem still when I walk around near the University of Washington campus: "Don't you understand? I'm not an old guy! I'm the same age as you!" In reality, I'm old enough to be not one but two college seniors. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 837 Registered: 03-2006 |
I was going to make a joke along those lines to Andy, that he should trade the 43 year old in for two 21 and a half year olds! Or see if that son has any hot female friends! | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 591 Registered: 05-2005 |
I'm not 40. Not for another six months or so anyway! You old fuckers! | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 849 Registered: 05-2005 |
Kurt, believe it or not I dont like Patti Smith or Chrissy Hynd either. I thought Throwing Muses were so-so, theres probably a good compilation album to be had from their 6 or so albums. There was a Kirsten Hersh solo album I quite liked, maybe called Hips and Makers, then again I could just be inventing that title  | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 591 Registered: 03-2005 |
Okay Kevin. You liked all those gay rockers when you were younger and now you don't like female artists. What will your therapist make of this? Seriously, I remember feeling a great sense of relief when women starting fronting bands fairly often starting in the late 70s. It seemed like men had kind of exhausted their topics and perspective at the time and the women, whether Chrissie Hynde or Exene Cervenka or Poly Styrene or even the revitalized Marianne Faithfull, brought urgently needed fresh air to the room. And now, thanks to folks like Robert Forster and Grant McLennan, it's no big deal for bands to have female players with the result that more and more women are able to create music in an unforced, natural way because, well, it's what they do. I have a number of 60s era female artists who I like very much but their careers always present a minefield of compromises and witheld opportunities due to the sexism of the era. One of my favorites, Jackie DeShannon, could write a brilliant song like "I Remember the Boy" and record it with excellent U.K. session musicians as early as 1964, have a bunch of her other songs covered by the currently successful male bands and then be saddled by the record company and producers with buckets of MOR crap like "What the World Needs Now" which is all the record-buying public wanted from women at the time. Where am I going with all this? I dunno. I do still find that my ratio of male to female artists in my CD closet runs about four to one. I guess I can't escape the guy thing. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 852 Registered: 05-2005 |
Randy, while reading your post I am listening to, and thoroughly enjoying, the new Stereolab comp. I find it hard to imagine anybody other than Laetitia Sadier singing, a male vocalist just wouldnt work. My ratio is probably 100/1 | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 838 Registered: 03-2006 |
I must stand up for the chicks...they probably dominate my purchases, of late. Something about a female voice that's just tremendously appealing to me. I am a huge fan of Chrissie Hynde. Exene and Patti Smith, I think I like the idea of more than actually take pleasure in listening to...Joni Mitchell, in her prime, I think as to rate as one of the great singer songwriters ever, all genres, all time periods. And Ella Fitzgerald and Linda Thompson are easily some of the great vocalists of all time. That said, I just can't get into Throwing Muses or Kristin Hersh, and I've tried (sorry Kurt). I had a brief infatuation with Belly until I realized they had, like one and half good songs and that I was really infatuated with that delectably cute Tanya Donnelly... And Lucinda Williams tops them all, for me... | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 597 Registered: 05-2005 |
Throwing Muses were far better live than on record. I saw them a couple of times. I also saw Kristin Hersh live, just her and an acoustic guitar at the University of Texas at Austin. Great show. Hips And Makers is a great album Kevin, but Sunny Border Blue is her best. Here's how I reviewed it in The Irish Times. (You've obviously not been keeping up with my www.myspace.com/padraigcollins postings!) Kristin Hersh **** Sunny Border Blue 4AD Kristin Hersh's former band, Throwing Muses, were part of Boston's post-punk scene that emerged in the mid-80s, but her solo records have been more gentle affairs (musically anyway - her twisted, brilliant lyrics are a constant). Previous solo work has failed to catch fire as the Muses did, but not anymore. Sunny Border Blue is a joy from start to finish and by far her best album. Hersh is a maverick genius and several songs on this, particularly the riff-heavy Spain and the beautiful William's Cut, are up there with anything she's ever written. Burn your Alanis records and buy something by a real talent. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 637 Registered: 04-2005 |
Padraig, great review! "Sunny Border Blue" is, in my opinion, the best thing Kristin's ever done, one of the rare times she combined her solo acoustic and full band tendencies, rather than keeping them separate (though "Limbo" and "Sky Motel" do the same, but less effectively). I'm seeing her play in a week at the Triple Door, the same fantastic, swanky venue the Go-Betweens played last year. I'm counting the minutes... I guess we can't agree on everything, can we, Hardin? But I will back you on the Joni Mitchell comment--there may be a tendency to write her off now or blame her for a lot of bad "sensitive chick" music that followed, but she was an amazing artist and innovator in her prime. It took rediscovering her work a few years ago for me to realize what a huge lyrical and melodic influence she's had on a lot of performers who came later (Prince, Elvis Costello, etc.). | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 843 Registered: 03-2006 |
Kurt, you and I agree on so much, if we didn't have a few differences it'd border on the pathological! And mind, I'm not in any way dissing the quality of what she's done, just saying that it is not, so far, to my taste...I continue to maintain the illusion that I'm open-minded... | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 236 Registered: 01-2005 |
It's just the opposite in jazz though. I bet the amount of records I have is 20-1 female over male vocalists. Save for some classic 50's Frank,Louis and a smattering of Johnny Hartman and a few others, it's all Ella, Sarah, Carmen, Dianh, June Christy, Julie London, Jeri Southern, Helen Merrill, Peggy Lee, Blossom Dearie and the current crop of Casandra Wilson, Karrin Allyson, Tierney Sutton, Stacey Kent, Ann Hampton Callaway and Diana Krall. |