| Author | Message | ||
     kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 335 Registered: 05-2005 |
Was playing Murmer tonight. Got to say that imo it is far and away my favouite REM album. Everything about it is so innocent, and there is no doubt they would eventually become better players, but it sums up the essence of this band for me. What about you? | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 306 Registered: 05-2005 |
Murmur. By country miles. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 280 Registered: 04-2005 |
No doubt, "Murmur"! It still sounds fresh today. R.E.M. is a band I rarely listen to anymore after loving them beyond reason in the '80s. The one I inevitably play is "Murmur." | ||
| Cichli Suite Member Username: Cichli_suite Post Number: 110 Registered: 08-2004 |
yes - Murmur. I also still like Chronic Town, the mini lp they released before Murmur. Fables of the Reconstruction is not as strong as Murmur but its my favourite early REM album afer Murmur. It's got a very downbeat feel about it. I started playing the guitar by learing the simple riffs from Chronic Town, Murmur and Fables. I never bought another thing after 'Document'. The thrill was gone by then. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 264 Registered: 08-2004 |
Reckoning. If any album could do with remastering it's Murmur. That very off sound is probably what others here like about it. The Smiths debut is very similar side 1 is quite hard going, muddy sound. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 355 Registered: 05-2005 |
Murmer. Its not open to debate! As its Easetr though, go on! My favourite tune of REM's from later years though is Electrolite. They always make piano and guitar work well together. Last few albums have been really uninspiring. Perfect Circle is probably my favourite. Although Radio Free Europe has a special place in my heart, due to it being the first thing I heard and saw by them on the UK's The Tube, next day bought the single and Talk about the passion e.p. for £1! I was 14. | ||
| Geoff Holmes Member Username: Geoff Post Number: 113 Registered: 05-2005 |
Murmer is amazing for me too but I think my faves are Life's Rich Pageant, Reckoning and Out of Time. And I know I face much derision and ridicule for the last one - hell, I even love Shiny Happy People which I know is terribly uncool but how often do you (still) hear 12 string Ric on the radio? Reveal is up there too. I HATE Monster - never play it. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 74 Registered: 01-2005 |
Mumur is my favorite albmu, but I still have a soft spot for the Chronic Town ep. After those two I thought they started going downhill somewhat. I thought they bottomed out with Green, but made a slight recovery on the next two. I hate Monster as well, and never bought anything else by them after Monster. I take that back, I managed to buy the Gold versions of Murmur and Reckoning, and the sound is vastly improved. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 312 Registered: 05-2005 |
I love Out Of Time too, including Shiny Happy People. I also think Monster is OK for an occasional listen. It's not a great REM album, but it's not terrible either. Nothing that came after Monster has been much cop though. That last one was downright awful. I was shocked REM could issue something so rubbish. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 337 Registered: 05-2005 |
Two things which I think are pertinent to the collapse of this once amazing band 1) they never recovered from the leaving of bill berry 2) they should have stuck to the promise/myth that they would break up on new yrs eve 1999. their reputation which is now beyond salvation, might, just might, have survived. there was a flaming lips article in uncut rcently in which wayne coyne mentioned that he was in the same room as stipe recently. he mentioned that if you wanted a conversation with stipe the dialogue had to be done via his PA. stipe also apparently refused to have a drink with the lips, probably jealous that here was a band that started at roughly the same time as rem who were actually still making incredible music. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 307 Registered: 10-2004 |
murmur. i love everything about it. i think the production is fantastic, one of my very favorite productions ever. the sound is gorgeous, especially with the detailed blend of electric and acoustic guitars. the songwriting is phenomenal. this album is perfection in all ways. i love chronic town equally. it's rougher, obviously, and bursting with youthful energy, but it's also amazingly sophisticated and intelligently melodic. especially for a debut. like "gardening at night," especially when it kind of breaks down into the quieter part, always sends a chill up my spine. i love reckoning too, but i feel that side 2 starts to lose steam. side one is a scorcher though. i mean, they really could do no wrong at that point, although sadly, for me it was all downhill after reckoning. i've often said i could probably live a decent life without any post-reckoning albums, but i could definitely live a perfect life without anything after, oh, let's say "green." | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 313 Registered: 03-2006 |
Denis Leary has a great comedy bit about REM: "'Shiny Happy People'? Pull that bus over to the side of the Pretensiousness Turnpike! I represent Angry, Gun-toting, Meat-eating people!" Yes, REM definitely "jumped the shark", though it's hard to pinpoint exactly when. I think the departure of Bill Berry definitely had something to do with it, though they still managed to crank out one semi-decent album after, "New Adventures" ("Electrolite" from it, is one of their best, I think). And of course, everything after that has been unlistenable bilgewater... And you could argue too, that to a certain extent, success spoiled them - they just weren't as musically potent after those first few indie classics...their stuff seemed a little dilute once they signed to a major, although those records are still chock full of all kinds of great musical highlights. For instance, "Country Feedback" (from "Out of Time", I believe?) is a career highlight. Michael Stipe, too, is just way too full of himself, though he stands for all the right things. Though I'm a liberal, he just seems way too smarmy and self-congratulatory about it...a lot like that sappy TV show, "The West Wing", which I can't bring myself to watch. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 339 Registered: 05-2005 |
Pedants corner alert!! Bill Berry was still in REM for "New Adventures" Hardin, but your Leary anecdote saves you from a reprimand  Regards the album itself, its probably the last one they made that I might force myself to listen to again. However, I think this could have been an excellent album had they 1) reduced it from 14 to 11 tracks, and 2)resisted from the crazy idea of recording some of these songs live rather than in the studio. the tracks I would have dropped : Binky The Doormat, Zither and So Fast So Numb which strangely enough all run into each other, tracks 10,11 and 12 | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 357 Registered: 05-2005 |
Murmer is the sound of low budgets, the love of it, nice cosy studio with a hippesque engineer and his sidekick teamaker, no egos, a quiet black and white portable TV in the background with endless repeats of The Rockford Files, no Internet, original rock music, long hair, probably the odd suede Chelsea boot, no TV commercials, no MTV, no bullshit, Rickenbackers and Fenders playing in harmony, cans of Bud, games of pool, lovely American sunshiney days, battered old sofas to lounge on whilst mixing, TDK cassettes to take home with the roughs on them, schoolhall piano playing (Perfect Circle), understated sleeve design, simple days, simple ways, simple plays, no fuss, no fret, just, well, just just, that striped sunlight sound indeed! | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 358 Registered: 05-2005 |
ps. My ambition is o write and record something that is nearly as good as Perfect Circle, that will never be, but be sure that I'll ake it upon myself to wear my heart on my sleeve... | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 314 Registered: 03-2006 |
Oops! I did it again...you're right. Impressive - you really are a walking music encyclopedia... Well that settles it, then: Bill Berry took all the quality with him, when he left. Maybe drummers DO make a difference. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 315 Registered: 03-2006 |
ps - Spence, your description of Murmur is way better than the lyrics of most latter-day REM songs (faint praise, I know)...nice. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 360 Registered: 05-2005 |
cheers! | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 281 Registered: 04-2005 |
I agree with both of Kevin's points about what led to the collapse. Berry's departure just sucked the life out of them. He was a lot more than a drummer musically. And somewhere along the line, they turned into just another bunch of rich, entitled stadium rockers. Massive popularity will do that. As many ultra-successful bands do, they eventually came to contradict everything they once stood for. I agree with Hardin that Stipe's causes are good and he has done important/interesting things outside of the band, but I find him intolerable as a front man, based on live clips I've seen of the band over the past 10 years (I haven't seen them live since 1987, right when their superstardom was starting). The Stipe I remember was shy and mysterious on stage; now he just seems like a bald, slightly quirkier, and sexually ambiguous version of self-important, messianic front men like Bono and Eddie Vedder. But honestly, I think those guys are more capable of taking the piss out of themselves than Stipe is. Musically, they did some good work in the '90s, but not a lot holds up so well. Though it's been bashed elsewhere, I think "Automatic for the People" is their best album of the last 15 years by a lot. "Monster" was novel at the time ("wow, they're playing heavy rock!") but isn't much fun to listen to now, and "New Adventures" seemed like an attempt to have it both ways by merging the "Automatic" and "Monster" styles on to one way-too-long album. I really hate the muddy sound on the live tracks, too. There's a good album in there somewhere, but throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks did it no favors. After Berry left, "Up" was a fairly noble failure with a few nice tracks, but it was so boring. "Reveal" was dead on arrival, and I haven't even heard the latest one all the way through, but wasn't impressed by the songs I heard. All the sense of adventure and creativity was gone. However, in a way, I think their "jumping the shark" moment was "Green," or at least the hits from it, especially "Orange Crush," because they took the hinting-at-stadium-rock direction of "Document" and went much further with it. "Orange Crush" was bombastic, derivative of U2, unsubtle in its message--not a good step for R.E.M. Honestly, I'd rather listen to "Shiny Happy People" 100 times in a row than hear "Orange Crush" even once. Even though "Out of Time" and "Automatic" scaled back the arena sound, I think the damage was done on "Green" (despite it having a few wonderful and even daring tracks). | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 316 Registered: 03-2006 |
Right around the time Peter Buck went apeshit and tore up a plane (remember that?), I read an article where Peter Buck said he couldn't drink anything but $200 a bottle wine, because cheaper stuff gave him a headache. Don't know what your reaction to a statement like that is, but mine is a hearty "F___ you, Peter Buck". I say that mainly out of jealousy, since my normal max I'd spend on a bottle is something like a tenth of that... This is in support of your "rich, entitled arena-rocker" theme, Kurt. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 341 Registered: 05-2005 |
Fantastic post by Spence to describe the making of Murmer. I used the word innocent in my description, Spence being the poet I am not fleshed out my sentiments perfectly. What does "jumped the shark" mean? Is it a Robert Johnson meeting the devil at the crossroads type of thing? | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 317 Registered: 03-2006 |
Sorry, Kev - it's probably exclusively an Americanism...somebody coined it to describe the moment a TV show goes irretrievably into the crapper...it comes from an episode of Happy Days (was that played over there?), where the Fonz jumps over a shark, while waterskiing. From that (ridiculous) point on, the opinion is, Happy Days sucked. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 343 Registered: 05-2005 |
Thanks Hardin , yes we got Happy Days in the 70s, description kinda fits for REM. Actually wouldnt that be a great thread? When did bands or TV shows "jump the shark"? | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 266 Registered: 08-2004 |
Was Happy Days that big a deal, then? Spence's description is best read out aloud to the tune of It's The End Of The World. I agree about Radio Free Europe, very similar rhythm to Man O'Sand & released only 2 months apart. I liked the 1st 4 LP's. Document & Green are a little bland in comparison, trying a bit too hard to rock out. Out Of Time set the standard for '90's. I still like them a lot. Although each of the last 2 albums has more duds than greats. | ||
| Hardin Smith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 318 Registered: 03-2006 |
Yes, it would, long as we don't say it about the GBs! I'm probably bastardizing the expression, though -it might just apply to TV..opinion, Kurt? | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 284 Registered: 04-2005 |
I think "jumping the shark" can apply to a lot of things, especially creative fields. It's a terrific idea for a thread. We might have to explain that the expression doesn't mean quite the same as "selling out." It's more an act of creative desperation, not necessarily a commercial gesture. And everybody knows the Go-Betweens jumped the shark with "Cut It Out"! | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 363 Registered: 05-2005 |
Cut it out, should have remained an acousitc only song, in my humblest of Easter time opinions, maybe that'd done the trick!! As it stands its fuc*in rubbish... | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 308 Registered: 10-2004 |
there was a live version of cut it out floating around a while back, and it was soooo much better. it's actually not a bad song. the production and arrangements are what turn it into the sad joke that it is. but yeah, in the end, it's definitely an example of "jumping the shark." | ||
| Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 60 Registered: 05-2005 |
Sorry to interrupt this deep discussion (heh-heh), but I just wandered in the room... My take: Murmur. Also saw REM on that tour (sort of), in a crowded smallish club in Ohio. "Sort of," because the album hadn't quite been released yet. Stipe introduced, Moral Kiosk as being a "new" song (with emphasis). A couple of us (and I believe that the others who were with me at that show are occasional lurkers on this forum) were positioned a few feet from the stage. After they played Moral Kiosk, I yelled, "that was a great song!" Stipe immediately snapped back, "WHO SAID THAT?" The club sort of went eerily silent. Just like when you turn the volume down on the stereo when the phone rings. I think he meant well, I mean, I think he was sincere, but I felt a bit like Dorothy in front of The Wizard of Oz. I didn't move... Anyway, back to the subject. I quite enjoy the sound of the mix on that disc. Doesn't sound muddy at all to me; on the contrary, very nicely recorded, acoustic instruments have a very natural sound to them. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 309 Registered: 10-2004 |
Rob - great story!!! And I agree with you completely, Murmur doesn't sound low-fi or muddy at all to me either. From what I understand, it was actually recorded at a fairly nice studio, and expertly produced by Don Dixon and Mitch Easter. It has a rich, organic feel to it that I really love. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 285 Registered: 04-2005 |
Maybe Jerry heard the first CD pressing of "Murmur," which was probably crap, as most early CD transfers were. The vinyl album sounds very crisp and clean, which tends to be Mitch Easter's production style. My CD copy of the album (from the mid-'90s, I think) sounds pretty good, but not as good as the vinyl. Definitely not muddy, though. | ||
| Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 61 Registered: 05-2005 |
Murmur: I bought the domestic vinyl release on I.R.S. almost the day it was released. I also (some time later) picked up a version of the (import only in the States, at the time) CD. I didn't notice any striking difference between the vinyl and the CD. And Jeff, based on my experience, and it's not my intention to contradict you, but in my opinion, early transfers likely were made more carefully. In those days, every mastering engineer was indoctrinated and consequently paranoid about digital clipping. So digital transfers were handled gingerly. Not to say that there weren't occasional and egregious mistakes. | ||
| Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 62 Registered: 05-2005 |
D'oh. Sorry, I meant: And Kurt...  | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 286 Registered: 04-2005 |
Rob, I think you meant me rather than Jeff. You may be right about most early CD transfers, but I think it varies by record company and, of course, mastering engineers. All I know is that most of my older (pre-'95) CDs are much quieter than ones from the past decade, and a lot of them get unpleasant when cranked up to equivalent volumes. I have a couple of early Steely Dan albums on CD (MCA Records) that sound abysmal back-to-back with the vinyl versions--they're hard to listen to at louder volumes; they're shrill but at the same time sound weak on the bottom end. But I'm sure you're right that they were more careful to avoid digital clipping back then. I guess "not quite loud enough" is better than "massively distorted." | ||
| Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 63 Registered: 05-2005 |
Kurt: Yes! You hit the nail on the head. Mastering a CD at too low a level (too quiet, like 20 dB too quiet) can result in ugly artifacts; very strident when played back loudly. On the other hand, clipping is the flip side of the coin; too much of this also is unlistenable. (OAgggh!) | ||
| Matt Ellis Member Username: Matt_ellis Post Number: 102 Registered: 11-2004 |
Blimey! what a great story Rob. Moral Kiosk remains my favourite REM song. I once took a vote on the fantastic main unofficial REM site www.murmurs.com and I was one of very few people to vote it top REM song. I've seen REM live 10 times now and of course they've never played Moral Kiosk as its now obscure being about 26 years old, and its not often revisited. I have a brilliant bootleg MP3 of it live - marvellous 3 way vocals..Bill Berry could definately sing. Kurt, I must say that your summation of the albums from Monster onwards I find was absolutely bob on. To add to that I'd say that the demise in the quality of their records is also down to two factors: 1) the trademark Mike Mills basslines seem to have largely gone. He has admitted himself that he is more interested in synths than bass. 2) The post New Adventures in Hi-Fi albums are very colaborative efforts. I felt that previous drummer Joey Waronker wasn't really suited to REM and Bill Reiflin is a fine drummer and comes much closer to replacing Berry. Buck plays bass on possibly half of the songs and individual (previously trademark) playing styles have been taken over with a highly produced studio type sound. I'd love to know how much input Scott McCaughey and Ken Stringfellow have in recording (possibly none but they have been permanent live sidemen for quite a long time) | ||
| Charles Member Username: Charles Post Number: 12 Registered: 04-2006 |
I got Reveal when it came out(hadn't bothered with REM since Atomatic), everything about them was begining to grate. Reviews suggested Reveal echoed U2's return to form with Everything You Can't Leave Behind. It's actualy quite good (in moderation), a bit like catching up with a mad old friend after they've had a stint in a good mental health facility. I'm still partial to the first two releases I got, Fables and Pageant. I'm suprised they havn't been acknowledged more often. To me they represent a perfect period in the life of the band, a balance between the obscurity of Murmer and the bombasity and self-consciousness of Green and most of what followed. Don't you think the song Perfect Circle sounds a bit too much like Prepare Ye The Way For The Lord? | ||
| Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 64 Registered: 05-2005 |
Matt, thanks very much for relaying that information. I remember Moral Kiosk as being my favorite song of their set that evening, it just stood out, and you expressed some of the details that made it so. There is something special that happens when several things click together harmoniously. Kiosk had those elements, especially performed live. It remains one of my favorite songs of theirs. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 334 Registered: 03-2005 |
I never got into REM. I always opted for the Feelies instead. Interestingly I find the only REM in my collection is, of course, "Murmur." I think I'll take it to work and listen to it. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 288 Registered: 04-2005 |
Randy, I loved the Feelies too and I've heard a few people sugggest R.E.M. was a ripoff of them, but I don't really hear it. Even if Stipe's lyrics and singing in the early days were mostly indecipherable mumbo jumbo, they were a lot more interesting than the Feelies' lyrics and singing. Then again, the Feelies were really about the sound, not the songs. R.E.M. rarely departed from tight, short song form. The Feelies were amazing the one time I saw them, especially on "Slipping Into Something"--I've never heard a band play faster...they took the VU/"Heroin" acceleration style and doubled the speed. They were opening for Lou Reed and I was wondering what he thought of them as heard them backstage (if he heard them). They played "What Goes On" as an encore and I was really disappointed he didn't join them. Anyway, a great band, but quite different from R.E.M. in my mind. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 339 Registered: 03-2005 |
I don't claim REM is a rip-off of the Feelies because I really don't know enough about either band to make that assertion. The connection for me is the vaguely similar guitar sound and, yeah, probably a bit of mumbliness. I did take "Murmur" to work and played it probably for the first time in about 10 years. I was struck by how much of an 80s pop record it is. Somehow I remembered it being more organic and indie in sound. So I think I'm reinforcing your observations. But it will probably sit idle on my shelves for another long time. "The Good Earth" is sure to remain in rotation. | ||
| Pat Boland Member Username: Pat_boland Post Number: 6 Registered: 05-2005 |
Some really interesting posts here. For the record, Murmur remains their masterpiece in my opinion. Brief flirtations with Pageant, Automatic and even New Adventures in Hi-fi have proven (relatively) short-lived but Murmur's mystique and inventiveness keeps it ahead of the others. As it happens - and many of you are probably already aware of this - Bill Berry wrote the music for 'Perfect Circle' which ties in nicely with the high regard that most fans have for that song and the theory that REM were finished as soon as he upped-sticks. I also recall a report that he insisted that Michael Stipe change a lyric on 'Welcome to the Occupation' form 'Hang your Freedom Fighters' to 'Hang your freedom higher'. Not your run-of the-mill tub-thumper was our Bill. Stipe was an oddball long before REM enjoyed their current profile. Anyone who can recall his (at the time, vaguely amusing) posturing for the best part of the IRS years will be aware of this. Not to mention his decision to take out an ad in several newpapers on the eve of the 1988 US Presidential Elections urging people to 'Vote Smart, Vote Dukakis'. To be honest, I find him amusing as a live performer but intensely annoying in interviews etc. Lyrically, he's not as clever as he'd lead us to believe either. Finally, there are some wonderful stories that Peter Buck has told about his experiences producing that magnificent second album by The Feelies 'The Good Earth'. Of course, there are many elements of that sound that were common to REM and the Feelies (and many other bands of the era) and REM's b-sides sounded more like the Feelies than most of the stuff on their albums. | ||
| Paul B. Member Username: Paul_b Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2004 |
Im a bit of a R.E.M tragic, saw them the first time on the 89 world tour with the Go-betweens supporting. Sadly did a quick tour of Athens GA. (hey, I was in the area) including a meal at Weaver Ds restaurant (Automatic!). Rhino records have long been threatening to re-release the IRS releases (Murmurs to Document) as double disks, the jury still out as to wether they will be re-mastered version of the albums with the B-sides on the second disk ala the Go-betweens releases (many of these songs appeared on Dead letter Office so it my well be some additional studio tracks) or DVDA versions of the albums, similar to the Warners releases from last year.. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 338 Registered: 05-2005 |
I went on a pilgrinage to Athens GA in 1989 myself! I was nowhere near the area! | ||
| Paul B. Member Username: Paul_b Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2004 |
I had a friend living in Atlanta at the time and decided to go for a drive to Athens. Started off as a simple drive to get out of the house and see some of the countryside. Ended up at Weaver Ds for lunch, record shopping at Wuxtry records and at the 40 Watt club then over to the steeple at the Episcopalian church where they first played. It was a wet windy and cold day but worthwhile nevertheless. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 400 Registered: 05-2005 |
Played Out of Time in my car the other day, as Bob Mortimer would say it was "verh goood"! | ||
| Matt Ellis Member Username: Matt_ellis Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2004 |
Funny you should mention that album Spence. I found myself with far too much time on my hands on Sunday so I went through the R.E.M. gigs I've attended (10) and got setlists for them from the brilliant site www.remtimeline.com I then worked out what songs from what albums have been played (!) and discovered that live they play less songs from Out Of Time than from any other album: They always play live staples 'Loosing My Religion' and very occasionally 'Me In Honey' and even more occasionally Michael Stipe's favourite R.E.M. song 'Country Feedback' | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 401 Registered: 05-2005 |
Yeah Matt its funny that. They obviously like to charm their audince with the stadia faves!! I'd love them to play The Mean Fiddler for a week and just play Murmer and Reckoning all night, and maybe 3 or 4 tunes from other albums... | ||
| jerry hann Member Username: Jerry_h Post Number: 123 Registered: 07-2005 |
I've agreat bootleg with REm playing the Borderline in London circa Automatic, it's mainly acoustic stripped down with a few choice covers ( Dallas)and duets with Billy Bragg,really great double CD.I like all there stuff up to and including Automatic.Country Feedback is one of my favourite REM tracks.Rveal had a few good songs but the latest has passed me by | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 407 Registered: 05-2005 |
Bingo Handjob was around '91 = '92? Matt the timeline link is cool thanks. | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 71 Registered: 04-2005 |
I never went to the Bingo Handjob gig in London, but had a t-shirt courtesy of a friend who did. It was a strange coincidence: I was down in London to see a solo Robert Forster gig, the one where he was backed by his German band and my friend was across from the States. She, being a big G-Bs fan, was due to come to the gig too but the day before got an personal invite from Michael Stipe to be on the guest-list for the REM appearance. Discussing it afterwards she reckoned she made the wrong decision! RF was excellent, the band was wonderful with a big hammond organ sound...almost Dylan at the Albert Hall! And before the gig I tried to sell the spare ticket outside even offering it to Grant, before I recognised who it was! I am with those that think that 'Green' represented the steep descent for REM. I can't imagine listening to anything after that really today. | ||
| abigail law Member Username: Abigail Post Number: 71 Registered: 06-2005 |
another vote for murmur - was never a great rem fan, in fact the only other rem album i seem to have is an old greatest hits (chronic town to its the end of the world...) I saw them live once in Auckland, around the time of automatic for the people. they were supported by crowded house who completely stole the show. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 88 Registered: 01-2005 |
I bought automatic for the people when it first came out in October of 1992 and really liked most of the tunes on it. I probably didn't get Crowded House's Woodface until the 1999 or so. Now when I listen to automatic for the people it's only the last 2 songs the I listen to. However, Woodface is one of my Top 25 albums of the 90's. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 413 Registered: 05-2005 |
both woodface and together alone are classics of pop. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 408 Registered: 05-2005 |
im getting worried... | ||
| Matt Ellis Member Username: Matt_ellis Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2004 |
'Bingo Hand Job' was 2 back to back gigs in March 1991 at the tiny Borderline club on Charring Cross Road (I actually saw a gig there last night!) In a sense it was dissapointing that they played this low key gig for selected fanclubbers and Radio 2 competition winners only as it took them another 4 years to return to the UK to do a 'legitimate' gig. I know someone who was lucky enough to go to one of the gigs - after the show my mate and his friends were among the last to leave the venue when they spotted Peter Buck. One of them approached Buck who said he was concerned that the set hadn't gone too well and as 'recompense' bought the guys a beer at the pub next door! | ||
| Geoff Holmes Member Username: Geoff Post Number: 126 Registered: 05-2005 |
Michael!!!! One of THE dream gigs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...and that sounds like another thread coming up..... | ||
| Paul B. Member Username: Paul_b Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2004 |
Agreed Geoff, The Bingo Hand Job gigs are almost mythical amongst the fans. I have a bootleg of one of the gigs, the one where they played Toms Diner with Billy Bragg. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 339 Registered: 05-2005 |
That's a great bootleg. I got it on cassette at the time. It sounded like a lot of fun. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 414 Registered: 05-2005 |
Kev, i know, file under 'guilty pleasures', I'll play The Au Pairs straight after them though!!! Saw loads of Bing Handjob bootlegs at record fairsyears ago couldnt afford them, might try ebay. I think a few trax exist on b sides from out oout of time single releases/ltd editions etc etc | ||
| jerry hann Member Username: Jerry_h Post Number: 125 Registered: 07-2005 |
I bought my copy down near Portobello market years ago, it has some extra tracks recorded in Italy to fill out the double CD.Not tempted to sell it though.Unless it was for a good price. | ||
| Pat Boland Member Username: Pat_boland Post Number: 8 Registered: 05-2005 |
Interesting that the IRS albums are getting an overhaul although there has been no mention of Murmur or Reckoning in any of the Press Releases. Of course, this won't be the first time that REM's IRS-era output has been reissued. In 1992/93 all of the albums were remastered with additional tracks: http://www.remrock.com/remrock/discography.php?thepage=comp The sound quality was superior to the original CD versions of these albums but in light of the sonic improvements on the recent Go-Betweens reissues I'd be inclined to suggest that there is still plenty of room for improvement - so here's hoping that they put more effort into this project than went into last year's lame attempt to inflict the DVD-A format upon us. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 434 Registered: 05-2005 |
Been playing Murmer all week, has anyone on close attention, noticed how Stipe seems to sound like Arthur Lee from LOVE? | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 641 Registered: 05-2005 |
Hard to believe the next one will be everyones favourite REM album. Would it be too much too hope that they do a Neil Young, Lou Reed, Bob Dylan and turn round a decade and a half of mediocrity to come up with a killer album? Not until Stipe comes out from up his own arse in my opinion | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 144 Registered: 01-2005 |
Things that would have to happen for REM to come up with another great album. 1. Kevin's comment above about Stipe. 2. Bill Berry rejoins them. 3. IRS is reconstituted and REM signs on. 4. Mitch Easter and Don Dixon produce it. 5. They record it at Mitch's Drive-In studio. 6. Mike Mills bass is featured more. 7. Peter remembers how to jangle. 8. Write songs like the ones that were on the Chronic Town ep. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 647 Registered: 05-2005 |
Michael, there is probably more chance of Mike Mills playing NO bass than more bass, expect piano based ballads. Tragic | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 577 Registered: 05-2005 |
Michael has hit the nail on the head. Bill Berry was key to REM as far as I am concerned. Its like The Stones with no Charlie (excuse the pun!) Its like Television with no Billy Ficca Its like The Smiths with no Mike Joyce Its like Josef K with no Ronnie Torrance (who the fu*k is he I hear you all shout with despair! - well along with Donald Johnson from Acertain Ratio, and Steven Daley from Orange Juice MK1 to a lesser extent, he brought James Brown beats to the New Wave) Its like The Icicle Works, no I'll stop there... | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 146 Registered: 01-2005 |
Spence, Its like the Velvet Underground without Mo Tucker. Opps, that already happened with Loaded. | ||
| jerry hann Member Username: Jerry_h Post Number: 193 Registered: 07-2005 |
Oh I don't know if I've said this before, but I liked REM up until Bill Berry left like out of Time and Automatic even though they became popular. Reckoning is probably my favourite , and I like the weird Stipey ones eg Swan Swan H for example.Saw them at the time of Reckoning in Hammersmith and they were great. I Have a soft spot for Fables and Green. Of course Automatic got caught up with the Lady Diana/MOR audience with Everybody Hurts becoming over played trivialised.Despite this Find the River and Nightswimming are great closing songs. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 648 Registered: 05-2005 |
I dont like anything after Side 1 of Document. I quite liked Green and Out of Time when they first came out, but now relaise that was just because as an REM fanatic I was craving the latest release. Thats not to say that there are not good songs on Green or OOT because there are, its just there was no mystique anymore which was part of the allure for me. Automatic For The People, for me, is unlistenable. By this time Stipe was a monster spiralling out of his ego. | ||
| Geoff Holmes Member Username: Geoff Post Number: 170 Registered: 05-2005 |
Kevin..... I can finally agree with you about something!!!!! I too found all the hyperbole about Automatic for the People mystifying, ditto Green. Monster is unlistenable as is most of New Adventures. Hated the latest but loved Up and Reveal. Jerry, wasn't Swan Swan H the 2nd last song on Pageant? Anyhence, I stick my head out again, only to get it bitten off, and suggest Swan Swan H sounds almost identical to JOHN LENNON'S (BEATLE) Working Class Hero. | ||
| jerry hann Member Username: Jerry_h Post Number: 194 Registered: 07-2005 |
Geoff, it is probably my lazy grammar. Swan Swan H wasn't on Reckoning. Had a quick listen to Murmur last night, and again I'll bow to the collected wisdom that Murmur is probably their best LP. I got into them just when Reckoning was being released hence my love of that LP.REM RIP | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 653 Registered: 05-2005 |
Geoff, I dont know whether to be pleased or alarmed that you can finally agree with me about something!! | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 150 Registered: 01-2005 |
Jerry, I agree with you on Find The River and Nightswimming being great closing songs. They are the only two that I listen to these days however when I listen to AFTP. I also have a soft spot for Fables, even though I perfer Murmur and Reckoning. I even like Wendell Gee from Fables. Green and Monster are my lease favorite REM albums that I own. I didn't buy anything after Monster. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 582 Registered: 05-2005 |
I always thought that Crowded House's 'Walking on the spot', sounded like the excellent track 'Find the River' Find was released before Walking but I wonder who wrote what first? | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 480 Registered: 05-2005 |
I once used to present a classic albums program on a radio station in Dublin. We would get a musician, a journalist and a fan in to talk about whatever album we were doing. It usually worked out pretty well. When we decided to do an R.E.M. album there was much discussion between the producer, me and a couple of the guests as to which album was their classic. The consensus was Fables, though my choice was Murmur. Interesting addendum, the only time the classic album program featured a contribution from one of those responsible for the record was when we did Liberty Belle and I interviewed Robert for it. The way he cued up Spring Rain as a "Brisbane AM radio song" was fantastic. I must dig out those tapes some time. I hope their boat trip from Dublin to Sydney via the Horn of Africa did not damage them. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 899 Registered: 05-2005 |
Just listened to the new comp, The IRS years, and in particular Sitting Still and Wecome to the Occupation. For me Sitting Still is the archetypal REM song, great tune, lyric,vocals, bassline - all on their first album as well. Lyrically though, did Stipe ever better this on Welcome To The Occupation, its almost Dylanesque? "Sugar cane and coffee cup, copper steel and cattle. Annotated history, the forest for the fire,where we opened up the floodgates, freedom reigned supreme, fire on the hemisphere below, listen to me" | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 682 Registered: 04-2005 |
Yep, that's the Stipe I miss. A few years on, it was "everybody hurts" and similar banalities. | ||
| abigail law Member Username: Abigail Post Number: 87 Registered: 06-2005 |
after listening to a couple of rem albums again lately i have come to the conclusion they were better when you couldn't understand what stipe was singing about | ||
| Cichli Suite Member Username: Cichli_suite Post Number: 180 Registered: 08-2004 |
I'm with you there, Abigail! I loved Stipe's mumbling and his fragmentary lyrics from the early days. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 48 Registered: 09-2006 |
Not quite ready to cast my vote yet, because I'm in the middle of reading a good R.E.M. bio ("Remarks Remade")and so am relistening to everything in order as I go, but can say that "You Are the Everything" is a strong contender for very favorite song. Most frustrating album: Pageant, which has always sounded like a bunch of very good songs (with two bits of truly annoying filler at the halfway mark) that never come together as an organic whole, despite several points where it comes very close. The problem's in the sequencing, I think. "I Believe" is my favorite fast one ever. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 995 Registered: 05-2005 |
Wasnt Pageant made up of cast offs from earlier in their career? Things like Swan Swan H were presumably new, but songs like Hyena, These Days and What if We Give It Away are REM by numbers. I still like 3/4 of this album though. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 740 Registered: 04-2005 |
Hmm..."Pageant" seemed like a bit of a comeback at the time after the occasionally lifeless and flat-sounding "Fables," which the group wasn't that happy with. You're probably right that some of the songs on "Pageant" were older, Kev. But the recording was all new and fresh; I remember it was a big deal at the time that it was produced by Don Gehman, who was known for his punchy sound, especially crackling, almost-too-loud snare drums. R.E.M. seemed to want break free from their (in some circles) wimpy, "they don't rock" reputation. It hasn't aged as well as "Murmur" or "Reckoning," but it's still pretty good. Patchy songs at times, yes. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 997 Registered: 05-2005 |
I have always thought that after the first 3 albums REM never made a record that "sounded" good. Sure the songs on LRP, Document, and to a lesser extent Green are great but I didnt overly care for the "big" sound. Whenever I think of LRP and Don Gehman I compare it to The Clash's Give Em enough Rope and how that album was ruined by Sandy Pearlman attempting to get that FM radio sound. I wouldnt be surprised if REMs next album was produced by Nigel Godritch, although my dream producer for them would be Brian Eno. What a combination that would be. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 741 Registered: 04-2005 |
Sadly, I don't think any producer could make Stipe stop writing boring songs and melodies. Am alone in disliking Nigel Godrich as a producer, by the way? I haven't liked what he's done with Beck and Pavement, and I don't know if he makes Radiohead better or indulges their worst pretentions. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 693 Registered: 05-2005 |
Great suggestion Kevin. I think only somebody such as Eno could help R.E.M. make a great record again. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 49 Registered: 09-2006 |
I've got no problem with the punchy sound of "Pageant", quite the contrary. As I said, I think the problem for me lies elsewhere: in the R.E.M. bio Don Dixon says that sequencing is the second most important of making a record (the first being having good songs, of course) and I'd most definitely agree. The example that comes immediately to mind is "Skylarking"...through the almost zen-like placing of the right song next to each other you get a flow that brings each song to the forefront of the listener's attention and experience it fully. Weak sequencing obscures each song's better qualities, and there's a feeling, like the songs don't belong together. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 1000 Registered: 05-2005 |
Kurt, I dont particulary rate Godrich either, although I think he did a great job with Thom Yorkes solo album, I love the sound of that record. I just have a hunch that REM might go for a "name" producer given that their critical and commercial status seems to be at an all time low. Allen, ever since the advent of CD I dont think sequencing is seen to be as important as it once was, which is a bloody shame. In the days of vinyl (using example of 5 songs per side) the strategy seemed to be to start with two great songs, preferably up tempo to get the listener onside from the start. Track 3 would probably be a bit slower and introspective, then things would pick up again on the the 4th track, and the 5th track would probably be the weakest because it was the last on that side so you would probably just let it play anyway. On to side 2, and you have to reel the listener in again so the first 2 tracks had to be killers. The middle tracks were probably the longer or more experimenal tracks, and finally the last track had to be another killer to sign off with. Of course The Ramones blew all that out of the water | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 822 Registered: 05-2005 |
Kev, interesting point about Eno and REm,now that would be cool! Eno produced a fantastic album, James' last album 'Please to meet you', its very majestic and I actuallythink it was their best, it was to be their final album, very underrated, I adore it for all its Eno'isms. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 824 Registered: 05-2005 |
Kev, interesting point about Eno and REm,now that would be cool! Eno produced a fantastic album, James' last album 'Please to meet you', its very majestic and I actuallythink it was their best, it was to be their final album, very underrated, I adore it for all its Eno'isms. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 444 Registered: 08-2004 |
Laid was a good James LP too, helmed by Eno. R.E.M. R.I.P. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 445 Registered: 08-2004 |
Just kidding, kids. Tim Booth & Stipe are very similar types of frontmen. Along with Morrissey, they are shy, yet outspoken. Only seem to let themselves go when there is an audience for encouragement. "Mess around with gender roles" is a theme too. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 825 Registered: 05-2005 |
Good point Jerry Boy Tim could dance! He used to spin around the NEC!! He once flew like thet Garth country fella too! | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 447 Registered: 08-2004 |
That's Garth Crooks. The intelligent ex-footballer. Morrissey was a big fan of James back when they were on Factory. The Smiths had a live version of What's The World as a B-side for I Started Something... cassingle. | ||
| XY765 Member Username: Judge Post Number: 110 Registered: 01-2006 |
I thought What's the World was recorded much earlier than that. I have the 'I started something' 12" vinyl and if I can remember correctly I thought it had a different version of Pretty Girls Make Graves' and something else, can't remember. The Smiths' last cuts were B-Sides for the 'Girlfrind in a Coma' 12", a Cilla Black cover 'Work is a four letter word', pretty good and the excellent 'I keep Mine Hidden' which must be the last original song Smiths song. God I wish the Smiths didn't break up after 'Strangeways'.... jerry if you want to try Cinerama check out 'Disco Volante' as in introduction, cracking album. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 448 Registered: 08-2004 |
What's The World (live), I Keep Mine Hidden & Work Is A Four Letter Word all appeared on a Sweet & Tender Hooligan single released 1995. When What's The World was recorded I couldn't say. Thanks for the Cinerama tip. | ||
| XY765 Member Username: Judge Post Number: 111 Registered: 01-2006 |
Jerry did Morrissey release Sweet & Tender Hooligan as a solo single in 1995 or do you mean 1985? Seems odd that he'd re-release a lot of Smiths tracks in 1995. I saw him about 18 months ago in Dublin touring You are the Quarry and I wasn't impressed at all. Especially playing There Is a Light twice. Best part was his excellent cover of Patti Smith's Redondo Beach. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 449 Registered: 08-2004 |
http://eil.com/shop/moreinfo.asp?catalogid=46571 I think it was a promotional vehicle for one of the many singles/best of comps since Rough Trade went under. | ||
| XY765 Member Username: Judge Post Number: 112 Registered: 01-2006 |
Thanks for the link, EIL are very very expensive usually. There were different releases of Smiths stuff bewtween the US (Sire) and the UK (Rough Trade). I read before that Louder Than Bombs was originlly aimed at the US market only, I suppose that's why it covers all their albums to that point I suppose. The only Smiths songs I never got my hands on were Wonderful Woman (Handsome Devil 7" B-Side) and Jeane (This Charming Man 7" B-Side), though I have Billy Bragg doing a version of Jeane on his Greetings to the New Brunette 12" and Sandi Shaw doing it with Johhny Marr on the Hand In Glove Sandi Shaw & The Smiths 12". I also have the New York 12" version of This Charming masn which is atrocious. I think some of the B-Sides to the Suedehead 12" were great too, like I Know Very Well How I got My Name and Oh Well, I'll Never Learn but I haven't heard those songs in about 14 years. Oh Well I'll Never learn is impossible to find. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 452 Registered: 08-2004 |
Not always the correct way to go about things. But limewire is a good source for such rare songs. That's how I got Wonderful Woman & Jeanne. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 826 Registered: 05-2005 |
There There - Radiohead | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 700 Registered: 05-2005 |
James are steaming pile of dingo kidneys. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 407 Registered: 10-2004 |
Haven't checked in on this thread in ages. Wow, "Wonderful Woman" is just a gorgeous, haunting tune. Totally worth whatever crazy prices the "This Charming Man" single fetches these days. It's criminal that it didn't wind up on "Hatfull of Hollow" or "Louder than Bombs." | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 454 Registered: 08-2004 |
Wonderful Woman & Jeanne are both worth having. I wonder if there is an issue with publishing or production that prevented them from being released again? Shel Talmy wasn't involved, was he? | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 141 Registered: 04-2005 |
'steaming pile of dingo kidneys'? So that's not good then Pádraig? Actually I really liked James, from their early days when every song sounded like a sea shanty, through the Madchester days with the additional musicians (Andy Diagram?) when their shows were incredibly powerful and up to their Brian Eno thinking person's U2 phase. Time for a revival I think! Tim Booth does devilishly whirling almost as well as Natalie Merchant. | ||
| fsh Member Username: Fsh Post Number: 89 Registered: 05-2005 |
James' first two 7"s were put on a 12" EP. Though I didn't like what they did afterwards, this EP is incroiable imho. Don't think it was ever released on CD though .. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 50 Registered: 09-2006 |
Finished the REM bio. Everybody's probably already heard this, but if not...one of the most hysterical quotes I've read in a long time is by Bono, during his testimony as a character witness at Peter Buck's "air rage" trial: "Most people that are in bands don't drink if they're serious and professional about what they do." I'm absolutely stunned that the next sentence in the book doesn't read, "The entire courtroom, including Bono, exploded in uncontrollable laughter." |