| Author | Message | ||
     Matthias Treml Member Username: Matthias Post Number: 151 Registered: 05-2005 |
I've been researching various equipment to purchase for digital recording of music for years. It's time for me to get off the fence and buy. But before I do, I wanted to query what you other guitarists, singers, songwriters, bands use. I'll lay out what I have, what we play, what I hope to accomplish and what I'm thinking about purchasing and why. I play solo and as a duo as trio. The instruments include: a six string Alvarez Yairi no pick-ups, 12 string Takamine with pick-ups built-in, Tacoma Thunderchief acoustic bass with pick-ups, a California Blonde amp, an AKG dynamic mic, a violin, an electric guitar and amp, RP5 effects board, harmonicas, and a variety of percussive instruments - shaker, egg, fish. We play all sort of stuff (Go-Betweens to Beatles) but all as acoustic arrangements. I'd like to add the missing pieces as well just don't know the players (percussionist, keyboard player) or have the time to practice with them (kids, wife, work). What the band we have does is play a folk-style coffeehouse throughout the winter (once a month). I live 2 hours from my bandmate so practice is minimal but when we do play together and have practice, we usually craft interesting arrangements and bang out the songs live and unfortunately forget about them. The only capture I do is a Sony camcorder with a standard built-in mic which I port to PC and do light clean-up (noise reduction) with Cool Edit 2000 s/w. If the PA (or "engineer") is particularly bad, I'll adjust the EQ but typically "there ain't much you can do to 1 track." This has worked for my means but as we craft more complex arrangements this little microphone has major limitations and can't capture the low end (you don't hear the bass or backing vocals.) Our goal is to record more properly because when we get a great version arranged and practice it up, I'm proud of it and I don't want to lose that work. Plus, I'd like to flesh the tunes out with some percussion and maybe keyboards similar to Ghost of Tom Joad type treatment. So I'm thinking about purchasing the following: 1 condenser mic ($220) M-Audio interface to the computer ($200) Cubase SX 3.0 ($600 ~ ouch!) What do you guys use? What make and model have you used? Pros / Cons? What type of output have you created? My ultimate goal is record a 12 song CD that I'd be happy with sound-wise to distribute to friends. This will be a big hit to the wallet so you can see why I want to bounce the ideas around and pick up tips. Usually, you go into Guitar Center and each guy has a limited expertise, some swear by self-contained portable recorders, some praise computer technology. Rarely, do you find both. But I'm more technical by nature as I work in IT. Thanks for listening. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 625 Registered: 03-2005 |
Matthias, I am envious of your access to violin! It sounds like you have a nice thing going and, yes, you should record it. I am a total techno-ignoramus so I kept it simple but also maybe a little pricey for your parameters. For example, I got a stand-alone recorder because I thought that would be easier than trying to figure out Pro Tools. I didn't factor in the incomprehensible Roland manual, most of which I still haven't read. Stand-alones will always cost more and because you are an IT guy I can't think of a single reason for you to use one. For a condenser mic I use a good but cheap Chinese-made model, an Avlex CI35. I use this for recording acoustic guitars. It has a pretty well-balanced sound but perhaps a little shy of that elusive "warmth." I have never asked it to pick up more than one thing at a time, however, since I record alone. It cost me $179 about 3 years ago. Since you have pickups installed in your acoustics you have the option of direct-injecting them into your mixer. That can save you the cost of mics for those instruments. Since I only record at home I opted for the mic on a stand because the built-in pickups always seem to have a bit of a metallic sound. Your AKG sounds like it might be good for vocals. If so, stay with it. If not, for vocals I can heartily recommend the Joemeek JM47. Oddly enough it is also a condenser. I can't remember what it cost me but it was less than $300. It's a cheap Chinese knockoff of a Neumann. Do not use it for instruments; it's dreadful on those. I recommend that you start talking yourself into buying enough mics to alot one to each instrument that doesn't already have a pickup. I seriously doubt that you will be happy with your sound unless you have the flexibility that the separate mics will give you. And forgive me if I am stating the obvious, but the condensers will all need power, usually phantom power from the board you plug them into. I suggest that you hunt around your area to see if you can find a good small independent music shop. They cannot meet Guitar Center prices usually but totally make up for it in expertise, service and, often, quality of individual instruments on sale. For anyone living in my part of the world, I want to give a shout out for Westwood Musical Instruments. They are the folks who led me to the Avlex, the electric 12 string I use (Roger Giffin) and the fantastic second-hand Martin acoustic bass guitar that sounds better but cost less than a new one. Guitar Center people will always be just as you've described. And the only second-hand instruments they have for sale will be laughably overpriced. On the money issue, Matthias, my recommendation is that you take your time and just gradually buy good products that you will be forever happy with. Hope you find your extra players! | ||
| Matthias Treml Member Username: Matthias Post Number: 152 Registered: 05-2005 |
Randy, thanks for the tips especially on the mics. I have a bit more to think about. I think I'll purchase the M-Audio device first and then try the mic I have and then purchase a condenser mic and try that and see if I need to return it for a different one (I think the store lets you do that.) So which stand-alone unit did you buy? The Boss one made by Roland? What is your setup (equipment, guitars, etc.)? What type of music do you play/record? Do you play solo or have a band? | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 636 Registered: 03-2005 |
I work alone, Matthias, in a tiny bedroom of a small house. So I've severely curtailed my instrument/equipment acquisitions just to make sure that the main rooms still look like a house. Spence is always talking about the sounds of various other guitars that I'd love to explore but, so far, I'm restraining myself. Since I work alone it was essential to have a lot of tracks available to me and I bought a 24 track Roland 2480. This is now an obsolete model. I believe Tascam now makes a 48 track unit that's also got more intelligible manuals. Presumably you don't need so many tracks but it is very surprising how many you can use up pretty quickly especially if you have a drum kit to accomodate. Which I still haven't done, by the way. Since I am doing this stuff on my own I have to play whatever I use but so far it's been simply multiple guitars and bass. I've experimented with fake organ once but I'm not too thrilled with the result partly because it's a cheap borrowed Casio board and sounds like it. For the guitars and bass, I've kept it down to one electric and one acoustic of each: one cheapie Mexican Strat, one nice Martin HD28V, one really nice Giffin electric 12 [see www.giffinguitars.com], one fabulous old Martin D12-35 complete with cigarette burn bought over eBay from some guy in Georgia, one cheapie Mexican Jazz bass and one Martin B40 bass. I took advantage of my middle-aged access to cash and bought some good things that I can use until my fingers stop working. For an amp, I'm just using a tiny Marshall practice amp which is really holding me back in terms of the sounds I have access to and I may eventually have to choose something else. But I'm only recording so whatever I get needs to be small. I'm writing my own songs and have a handful up on MySpace. They don't let you choose your own descriptive category or I'd call it "punk folk rock." http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=114375 595 | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 412 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here's what I use as far as mics and recording stuffs: -1 Shure SM57 (pretty much a necessary all purpose mic) -a pair of Oktava MC 012s (small diaphragm condenser capsule mics, great in x-y position for acoustic guitar and drum overheads) -Audio Technica AT4050 Condenser (great, versatile go-to condenser, great for vocals, acoustic guitar, general room mic) -2 Reslo ribbon mics, forget the models, but they are different models and both from the the 60s, and they sound amazingl awesome for clean electric guitar. i almost always use these in tandem when recording electric guitar. Not that you'll want to go hunting for some old Reslos, because first of all, finding one that's even functional is kind of hard, but my point is that ribbon mics are great for electric guitar, especially for warming up the signal a bit (they tend to have a very warm, colored, thick sound). i also like to use one of them in tandem with one of my oktavas on acoustic. -Peavey VMP-2 dual tube pre amp - great tubey sound, nice detail, and the only truly stellar thing peavey ever made. Why they don't make more stuff of this quality is beyond me. -JoeMeek - can't remember the model, but it's a pre/compressor/eq thingy, has tons of head room, nicely colored, and i use it a lot. - RMP/RNC - Really Nice Pre Amp and Really Nice Compressor - relatively inexpensive but extremely well-made. Shoot, I have to run. I need to meet someone and probably shouldn't have started writing this in the first place. I'll writ more later, and hopefully something that's actually helpful. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 14 Registered: 08-2006 |
I'm with Jeff - the 57s and the Oktava's are very valuable to have for instruments, amp mic-ing, etc. I also use an AKG C3000 condenser for vocals, which has been fine. And I'm with Randy - I'm a moron with technology, too. But I did invest in an Mbox a few years back (it comes with ProTools LE) and haven't had a single complaint. I don't know how many tracks you're looking to record at one time, but if you're doing it track-by-track, the Mbox could save you money if you're looking at both the M-Audio and Cubase. I've used the Mbox both to record high-quality demos and to overdub guitars and other stuff on tracks I've recorded in a professioal studio. If there's a loss of quality, I can't hear it. Oh, and I record on a Mac, if that's a factor. Take this advice for what it's worth. I leave the heavy technical lifting to others. But I'm very happy with the Mbox and ProTools LE. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 15 Registered: 08-2006 |
Hey, Randy, I really enjoyed your stuff on MySpace. It's really well done. I'd listened to all the tracks before I realized it - they're terrific. If you're so brave, I will be, too: Here's a 2002 recording of a song of mine with my (perhaps now defunct) band The Lucky Ones: http://www.lostinamericamusic.com/Music/emily.mp3 | ||
| Matthias Treml Member Username: Matthias Post Number: 156 Registered: 05-2005 |
Rob, Please elaborate on your M-box / Pro Tools LE setup on your Mac. What do you play (instruments), what type of music have you recorded, what mics do you use, how much was all your gear? This will really assist me as I'm torn on the s/w bit. I have a 1 yr old WinXp tower. I need to upgrade my disk drive and get a DVD burner but otherwise it should be able to crunch the bits. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 28 Registered: 08-2006 |
Matthias: I play guitar, mainly, although I'll record some bass from time to time or whatever else I have on hand. I primarily use the Mbox for good-quality demos - it really sounds good, and I feel free to mess around in a way I don't in a studio. Lots of times I'll grab some canned drums, like from a drum loop collection, find the right beat/tempo and record to that. It's easy to import that stuff into ProTools. As far as mics, I have a Shure SM 58, two 57s, an AKG C3000 and something by Oktava, I can't remember what it's called. That's pretty much it. I think the Mbox was $400 when I bought it, and the mics I bought second-hand from friends, probably for a total of $500-$600. It was over a period of time so I don't remember. Anyhow, it's a very functional set-up for the way I use it, and I could probably use it for a lot more. The only caveat I have is I don't know how well ProTools works on Windows machines. A lot of my Windows friends use Cubase or something like that. You might want to ask around if you're interested. Good luck with this stuff. It's confusing as all hell, if you ask me. I basically held my nose, opened my wallet, and jumped. | ||
| Matthias Treml Member Username: Matthias Post Number: 157 Registered: 05-2005 |
What do you guys think about the Mbox2 bundled with ProTools LE? http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=rec/product/reviews/base_pid=241730/rpp=10 / It sounds good and I'm leaning that way now. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 29 Registered: 08-2006 |
Matthias: I'm sure you know this but I just wanted to make sure. The Mbox is always bundled with ProTools LE. The package you're looking at is $100 more than the regular Mbox because it's bundled with extra effects plug ins. I'm sure the plug ins are worth it, but I just wanted to make sure you're not paying more than you have to because you think you have to to get ProTools LE. Also (and again, you probably know this) check out the DigiDesign Web site to make sure your computer/operating system is compatable with ProTools. It's a great system, but it's not compatable with everything. Other than those caveats, you know I'm a fan of the Mbox, so I'd say go for it. | ||
| Matthias Treml Member Username: Matthias Post Number: 158 Registered: 05-2005 |
OK so now I'm torn. I've checked out the specs for Pro Tools and I'm great on everything but chipset. I'm not sure if the 925X Express is the same as a 925XE (supported) or the 925X which Intel says is not supported. I cannot find a way to ask either Digidesign or Intel on their websites. I'm going to call Dell India but I'm leery about purchasing now on the recommendation of someone besides the original OEM. So I've been looking at other ideas such as: M-Audio FireWire 410 Computer Recording Interface Product #701385 - on Musician's Friend it got some poor reviews from DJs but a good one from someone who's doing similar sorts of recording (guitar, bass, vocals) like me. The price is right at $299 with free headphones and I can spend the cash on software (it doesn't sound like it includes any) and microphones. the other option is PreSonus FIREPOD 10-Channel FireWire Interface with Cubase LE - this would include the software and is only $499. Much better reviews, can also record drums (unlike first option) Anyone use Cubase LE? Any other comments? This money is burning a hole in my pocket! | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 37 Registered: 08-2006 |
Matthias, I have a friend who owns a recording studio and also does remote recording of live shows. He has the Firepod for his off-site work and loves it. Just FYI. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 38 Registered: 08-2006 |
One last thought: I'd be surprised if you need anything more robust than the LE version of either ProTools or Cubase, so it's definitely worth it to choose a hardware/software bundle since buying stand-alone software is pricey. That makes the M-Audio even less attractive. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1052 Registered: 03-2006 |
Rob, your group's "Emily" is fantastic. Instantly memorable - and I particularly like the meaty guitar hook. Are you the main singer, songwriter, bottlewasher, etc. ? And, is the name an homage to a certain Mr. Johnston? | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 60 Registered: 08-2006 |
LK: thank you so much. I share songwriting duties in the Lucky Ones with my friend Dave, a la the GBs. This tune one of mine, including the vocals, although the meaty guitar is Dave, as is all the other good guitar on the CD. I'm a rhythm player, and a pretty pedestrian one at that. And yep, you guessed it, we nicked the name from Freedy. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 696 Registered: 03-2005 |
Yikes! Rob, I listened to your song three days ago and forgot to post something about it. First off, let me acknowledge that I'm totally green with envy over your band. With real players. It's a good song and the whole thing is a good listen. And, yeah, it's really scary posting stuff up isn't it? | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 64 Registered: 08-2006 |
It's true, Randy. I mean, the CD's been out for two years, it's on Amazon, iTunes, etc. we've been on the radio, the songs are online - I mean, it's all out there. But there's something about posting it on a board. It's a bit more... exposed, I guess. And yeah, I've been lucky to play with some good people. We actually played last night for the first time in about eight months. We're all good friends, so every gig is basically an opportunity to consume alcohol and make a lot of noise. Unseemly for a 40-year-old, perhaps, but cathartic. |