| Author | Message | ||
     pd Member Username: Peter_d Post Number: 15 Registered: 05-2005 |
hello, my new years resolution - to do more posting here (don't know if that's a threat or a promise!)  I was looking at the wonderful triple-j performance of 'bachelor kisses' and it struck me that my favourite ever live show was the acoustic show in 1999 in Vicar Street..ok, it wasn't a go-betweens show per se but I was wondering what other people's views on the acoustic versus electric debate are ? I would personally love to see this released..happy new year to you all ! Peter | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 193 Registered: 02-2005 |
I saw Robert & Grant twice as an acoustic duo; opening for Lloyd Cole in 1990 ('91?) and at Fez in 1999. They actually did two shows at Fez and I had tickets for both. I've said this more than once; there is no sturdier collection of pop songs from the past quarter century than that of the Go-Betweens. Most G-B's recordings have integral arranging or instrumental ingredients, but the songs are undiminished in stripped-down acoustic presentation; in many ways they shine brighter. I have a few acoustic recordings and I've listened to them a lot... more than any of the official albums in the past eight months. If Robert is looking for any encouragement I would heartily recommend an archival release of acoustic demos and a live or radio broadcast from the 1999 tour. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 459 Registered: 10-2004 |
To be honest, I've always felt a bit let down when Robert and Grant played live with only acoustic guitars. For one, Grant's melodic leads just don't always translate very well on acoustic, and they're not very audible, either. Particularly on songs like Part Company, Head Full of Steam, etc... One element that made those older songs so brilliant (to my ears) is the guitar interplay. Grants shimmery melodic, electric leads fused with Robert's acoustic or electric rhythm parts always kept things rich and melodically distinctive. When they both play acoustic, I feel that aspect is dampened. So, I would disagree: although I would really have to argue on a song-by-song basis, I think some songs are diminished by stripped-down acoustic performance. I will agree that most of their songs are still wonderful regardless of what kind of guitars are used. But when they both play acoustic, part of what excites me about their music is missing. There are times when the acoustic thing works. For example, I enjoyed seeing the "live in the livingroom" set appended to the live DVD that came out last year. Acoustic guitars were entirely appropriate for such an intimate setting, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. But I was elated when they finally toured the US with a full "electric" band after OA came out. The two previous times they came around they did the acoustic thing, and although it was incredibly exciting to see them, it didn't always translate that well for me. Perhaps the acoustic thing would've worked better in much smaller venues. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 361 Registered: 01-2005 |
Guy, Didn't Robert Vickers play bass at those 1999 shows at The Fez? Was it just on a few songs though, or all of them? I really enjoyed seeing Robert and Grant in Pontiac, MI in June of 1999. Probably only 100 or so fans showed up, which is why they didn't tour stop in Michigan in 2005. The Grog Shop show in Cleveland only drew a couple dozen fans from what I have been told. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 1096 Registered: 04-2005 |
I tend to agree with Jeff. The acoustic demos (and the living room set on the DVD) are great, but if there are going to be archival releases in the future, I'd rather hear good quality, full-band live shows from all eras of the group. | ||
| Matthias Treml Member Username: Matthias Post Number: 185 Registered: 05-2005 |
Good question. I loved the show in '99. Caught a glimpse of them in '92 before Lloyd Cole. We tried like hell to get there on time but an ice storm made going at all hazardous. The '99 show will always go down as one of top ten concerts of all-time for me. But I do wonder if I love the initmacy of the acoustic shows so much because my mind fills in the pieces I've heard on record. I've taken some friends to their first-time exposure to Lloyd Cole acoustic concert and they weren't at all impressed. I like to think it was misunderstanding English humor but I think not. They were hearing these very stripped down versions like of Forest Fire and they got bored. As much as I wish I could be more objective with Robert and Grant, I simply cannot. They grabbed a piece of my heart and I will always love them unconditionally like I do my children. I can be critical of their work at times but more than any other group they simply cannot do enough wrong to banish me. They can always be my prodigal sons. Unfortunately for me as well, I never saw them electric in either forms... Had I known what we know now, I would have went to that Chicago show instead of waiting for them to come to the Motor City next go around. | ||
| Matt Ellis Member Username: Matt_ellis Post Number: 138 Registered: 11-2004 |
I can relate to that Matthias - I took an ex girlfriend to see Lloyd Cole solo acoustic in Middlesbrough in 2000. It was an outdoor gig in a wonderful setting, great set.... she was completely bored and we broke up a few weeks after! | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 1150 Registered: 05-2005 |
I feel the GB's like most groups of their ilk (Television, Talk Heads) were formed around the basic electric guitar, electric bass and acoustic drums set-up. At that time, acoustics weren't what people were playing unless you were a solo or country artist. They always adapted well into 'unplugged' when, as is mentioned above, they were on radio, in-store or on the DVD. Not many groups/artists can do that, unless they write their stuff on acoustic. As a for instance, I once heard the rock group Feeder do acoustic, and this particular session was pretty naff, weak and child-like I seem to remember. Their nursery rhyme style of delivery only really working when amplified (although some may doubtthis too!). A lot of groups transcend to acoustics through their maturity. At the moment or or the past 6 or 7 years bands wandering arouond with their acoustics are much more common place. As per usual I'll end on, for me, I love acoustic based music now more than ever. I much more prefer the leanings of Kings of Convenience because of their appliance of acoustics, if push came to shove anyday, over say, Midlake (very electric - although, I gush for these guys too) for instance. I wonder if Robert and Grant actually wrote songs on electric or acoustic?, would Mr Vickers know? | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 254 Registered: 08-2006 |
I wouldn't quibble with any live GBs released henceforth, but I've heard recordings of both acoustic and electric shows and, in my opinion, the electric ones are the most revelatory. In their first incarnation, the band playing live could be pretty loose and punky, even playing the 16LL stuff. It's interesting to hear the ragged edges of songs that ended up a little more mannered and produced on record. That said, I saw them in '99 here in Chicago, in acoustic form, and it was magical. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 1108 Registered: 04-2005 |
Interesting post, Spence--good points. I'm guessing RF and GM may have switched to writing on acoustics at some point--my ears tell me it was after BH. Robert's songs and guitar playing before SHF sound like they were written on and for electric guitars--lots of that fast staccato, post-VU strumming. And I wonder if Grant wrote songs primarily on bass the first few years."Dusty in Here" (and perhaps "Cattle and Cane") in particular sounds that way to me. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 367 Registered: 01-2005 |
Kurt, Grant wrote "Cattle and Cain" on Nick Cave's acoustic guitar. I am not sure about "Dusty in Here", but it very well could have been written on bass. I bet Robert wrote "Here Come A City" on electric guitar! | ||
| Donat Member Username: Donat Post Number: 239 Registered: 11-2004 |
You look at the photo in the booket of 'The Lost Album' and you'd think by looking at that, one would assume the boys started writing on acoustics from the start. Just a hunch. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 1117 Registered: 04-2005 |
Thanks, Michael...you're right, I forgot the story about "Cattle and Cain" being written on Nick Cave's guitar. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 1118 Registered: 04-2005 |
And, of course, I meant "Cane." Not Cain and Abel... | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 194 Registered: 02-2005 |
Regarding the Fez shows in 1999: yes, Robert Vickers came out and joined Forster & McLennan on bass and Will Rigby (The dB's, Steve Earle's band) played a snare drum standing up with brushes. It was really sweet. I'm having trouble remembering now, maybe they did a couple songs with Vickers as a trio and then Will made it a four piece... maybe Will only participated in one of the two sets. Everybody on stage seemed really happy. I know Will and remember that Grant gave him a "good job" kind of nod that he could just jump-in on a single snare drum and add to the performance. The songwriter's forum on 'Striped Sunlight Sound' is not a great example of how good R&G sounded playing acoustic... Grant's voice was really shot the day that they filmed. And the sets they did opening for Lloyd Cole were a bit tentative-sounding... they became better musicians in the ten years that followed. I enjoy all the live G-B's recordings I've been fortunate enough to hear and yes, the band did interesting things with the material and rocked out harder than one might expect. But the Munich Radio Broadcast and Geislingen performance from May 1999 are both wonderful. I think they show another side of Robert and Grant's talents and with 'Live In London' and 'Sunlight Sound' both being available, an acoustic release would be a great counterpoint. But if Robert doesn't feel right about archival releases that's perfectly understandable. I'd like him to get on with his own writing and recording career before he focuses on the rearview mirror. | ||
| Robert Vickers Member Username: Robert_vickers Post Number: 49 Registered: 05-2005 |
I think Will and I did four songs in each set. I asked Will to do it because I had played with him in the past and knew he could just come in to sound check and get it right immediately. As to what R&G wrote on, I think they wrote on both. I shared a room with Grant on tour for a year or two and seem to remember him working on his Ibenez and later on the acoustic when we took to carrying one around with us. I think in general people gravitate toward an acoustic when trying to work out chord progressions and write lyrics as you can hear better than you can on a solid body electric. Robert, of course had that hollow body Gibson for a long time and probably used that a lot too. Both played acoustic a great deal but it would be wrong to see them as some kind of Simon and Garfunkel. In their formative years they were not listening to John Prine and Joan Armatrading, it was The New York Dolls and The Velvet Underground. Yes, they were Dylan obsessives but their Holy Grail was Blonde on Blonde, not The Freewheelin' Bob. An acoustic was an important part of the mix not the main instrument. In recent years they've used them more (but I'm still not sure why Grant started to play his leads on acoustic). I think like a lot of songwriters on their generation and level of sales the move toward acoustic is as much pragmatism as musical desire. An acoustic makes touring more possible for artists with limited incomes. Without that option they probably could not have done the Lloyd tour or the 1999 Lost Alum tour that really set up the reunion albums. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 907 Registered: 03-2005 |
Explain, Robert. Why is an acoustic relevant for limited incomes? Is it because you don't have to lug around an amp? | ||
| Robert Vickers Member Username: Robert_vickers Post Number: 50 Registered: 05-2005 |
Well, an amp, and a band with their amps as well. And a drum kit. Extra airline tickets etc etc. You need a big van instead of a minivan or car. And paying the musicians as well. If you can tour with acoustics it's maybe not perfect musically but it's usually better than not touring at all. Although after BYBO R&G could not afford to bring the full band to the US but decided they did not want to do an acoustic show so didn't tour the album. | ||
| Alex Bolton Member Username: Alexb Post Number: 32 Registered: 01-2006 |
Robert mentioned Lloyd Cole whose band I think he was playing in when Robert and Grant were the support act. He's reinvented himself as an acoustic artist, touring solo and self recording well received albums in a way that wouldn't have been possible a few years ago. Economics aside, artists who are songwriters do seem to gravitate towards acoustic performance since the more reflective style matches the tone of their compositions as they get older. Songs can of course stand alone played on acoustic where electric necessitates a band. Despite their new wave roots, I feel the GoBs songs were mainly acoustic driven and it's interesting that when they did finally tour the world as a four piece, the acoustic sound was much in evidence. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 1141 Registered: 04-2005 |
If Robert V. is still reading this, I'm curious about how they recorded their electric guitars in the studio, given they were a decidedly "non-pedal" band. There is a bit of sustain and distortion at times, especially on SHF and Tallulah. Is that through the amps, or were they a little less militant about the use of guitar effects in the studio? Also, I listened to "German Farmhouse" recently and decided it had to be the heaviest, most distorted thing in the band's catalog. Maybe it was the Sleater-Kinney influence. Interesting to note that they played the band version on "Live in London" with two acoustics. Perhaps they didn't like the "hard rockin'" version in retrospect. | ||
| Elizabeth Robinson Member Username: Liz_the_new_listener Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2006 |
Sure, I think of 'Rare Breed' and 'Twin Layers of Lightning'! Then I think of an anecdote I read recently about GMcL once admitting to a fan who requested some of the older songs once the Go-B's were back together, that it had been quite a while since they had played what he wanted to hear and so the old songs would not be up to snuff (Please forgive my paraphrase!) Then Mr. McLennan was totally nice and went up to to the disappointed people after the show... The Go-B's were mellower souls once they'd gotten back together - but then again they had always picked, kind of like some of the 60's bands, when they played electric more. It's part of the appeal of their earlier sound to me, and probably a conscious choice when they were first making music that they would not be playing the heavy stuff in the first place, so they'd be going for the lighter sound. Sure, I think of 'Can You See the Light?' from In Your Bright Ray..... | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 910 Registered: 03-2005 |
Forster's "Cryin' Love" is another noisy number (and a much better song than "German Farmhouse" imo). He has it in him; the mood just doesn't hit him that often. Which suits me fine. | ||
| Robert Vickers Member Username: Robert_vickers Post Number: 51 Registered: 05-2005 |
Robert and Grant were never much into pedals. They liked to get a sound on stage and stick with it. Robert's was pretty clean using a Fender twin while Grant's was affected as he used a Roland keyboard amp most of the time. In recording we didn't use distortion much. Although Apology Accepted might be a notable exception. And I belive that was done through the amp rather than a pedal. In recording of course the producer has a significant say in guitar sounds. And then in the later albums when you have other guitarists doing the leads (German Farmhouse, Cryin' Love, etc)you find a lot more varied guitar sounds. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 1146 Registered: 04-2005 |
Thanks, Robert. I've wondered just how much of the electric guitar on FWIW is Carrie Brownstein. I'd guess most of it on "German Farmhouse" and "The Clock" at least. I still think both RF and GM sold themselves short as electric guitarists. Of course, Steve Kilbey noted in his blog that Grant could really rock out on electric when he wanted to. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 1102 Registered: 05-2005 |
I'm with you Randy, re Cryin' Love. A great song on a not-so-brilliant album. Must play it again to see what I think of it now. Have not done so in years. | ||
| Elizabeth Robinson Member Username: Liz_the_new_listener Post Number: 60 Registered: 10-2006 |
Dear Mr. Vickers - Thank you so very much for your posts on this thread! It's very interesting to hear what the Go-Betweens actually did when they played - beats reading Rock Guitar for Dummies and its generalizations about guitars and amps! One question - Did Mr. McLennan use a Roland keyboard amp out of actual preference? | ||
| Robert Vickers Member Username: Robert_vickers Post Number: 52 Registered: 05-2005 |
You know, the Roland JC 120 probably wasn't really a keyboard amp but it was popular with keyboard players in the 80's. It had a kind of processed sound and a chorus effect. Grant had one in London and I think requested one when we rented tour gear. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 1172 Registered: 05-2005 |
The Roland Jazz Chorus 120 was a real staple I seem to remember, Roddy Frame used to swear by them in early days of Aztec Camera, monochrome Set used them too, they have twin speakers right? The sound I seem to remember was like when you have active circutry on a bass or guitar, this real extension of the treble, a real elctric shock type of response. They looked cool, but not as cool as the old Fender Twin reverb though (IMHO!) Josef K used to play throuh the Fender twins. | ||
| Robert Vickers Member Username: Robert_vickers Post Number: 53 Registered: 05-2005 |
2 x 12" speakers I think. Robert had a Twin so we had two slightly different sounds on the guitars. | ||
| Hugo Member Username: Hugo Post Number: 16 Registered: 06-2005 |
I have the acoustic demos of 16LL, and I have to say I prefer them these days to the actual album, which suffers from a production that has not aged particularly well. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 1177 Registered: 05-2005 |
I'd like to hear these demos does anyoone have them? Could I get a copy? The problem is with most late 80's/early 90's is tht it did suffer from gloss, but if you can gloss over it, its not so bad. I love that album now because of the beautiful words and playing, though it was a slow burner, due to the production, by God it should have been number 1 all around the world too, they deserved it. Mind you so did Tallulah, and LBBDE. | ||
| Hugo Member Username: Hugo Post Number: 17 Registered: 06-2005 |
My CD of 16LL demos came free with the French music magazine Les Inrockuptibles a few years ago. This CD is listed on the discography of this site. Sound quality is not superb but it's certainly good enough and it's great to hear these songs stripped down like that. It's not all acoustic, I think there's some electric guitar hear and there. I'm sure you can pick it up on ebay or whatever. I don't have CD copying capabilities right now unfortunately. | ||
| Martin Schori Member Username: Martin_s Post Number: 8 Registered: 05-2006 |
Spence, I have this CD and I can send you a copy (send your address to mschori@gmx.net). Hugo, I prefer the "official" album. It's more comprehensive, and the sound is superb, it has aged better than most albums from this time. Sadly it doesn't include "Wait Until June" and - especially - "Rock And Roll Friend". So you need to have the reissue on Lo-Max. |