| Author | Message | ||
     Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1044 Registered: 03-2006 |
Does it bother you when an artist whose work you admire has dodgy politics? Though my basic take on that issue is "trust the art, not the artist", I have to admit it has bugged me on a few occassions... | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 44 Registered: 08-2006 |
I guess, for me, it's kind of situational. Hypocrisy is unacceptable to me - like if someone who writes great songs about the repressed and disenfranchised went out and stumped with Rick Santorum or something, that'd kill the art for me. It'd seem like a pose. I could live with it, though, if an artist created largely apolitical works that I liked and just happened to have differing political views. I don't care what Amy Rigby's views on border security are, for example. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 683 Registered: 03-2005 |
Explain Hardin. Do you mean when the artist insists on injecting his or her politics into the art, or just when you know (as background information) about the artist's politics? Examples please. I must confess that I will always be bugged when somebody's political views are different than my own but I'm not sure that will impact my view of the music unless maybe the artist wants to put my type into concentration camps or something. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1045 Registered: 03-2006 |
Ah, that does need tightening, doesn't it? I'm meaning when those politics DON'T seep into the art, where it is only known as background information. And, I will give an example. I was reading a piece on Pete Townshend in Rolling Stone, whose songwriting I admire. It's actually an extremely interesting interview, in which Townshend expresses some amusingly ageist views about several baby boomer acts hitting the boards these days, and he doesn't spare the 'Oo, either. But, some comments he makes in it have the hint of his being a closet Bushie, which I am decidedly not. And, it does kinda make me sour on his work a bit. I have no real interest in the Who at this point - they are just past it, but I was still interested in his "songwriting voice", if you will. But now... Maybe it's different for our counterparts living in Europe and the UK, but politics are so all important to me these days and everbody I know. Maybe I take them too seriously.... | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 684 Registered: 03-2005 |
"I hope I die before I get old." Now we see why. A lot of old farts become reactionary as they age. I still harbor a nagging suspicion that Mark E. Smith is a nativist Tory. My favorite brother boasts of being right wing. I think his political opinions are so ill-informed and misguided as to be beneath debate. But he's still my favorite brother. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 813 Registered: 04-2005 |
It can be a problem, no question. I've nearly abandoned Neil Young for his swings to the right (pro-Reagan comments in the mid-80s, "Let's Roll" jingoism after 9/11), but he's so changeable that you just have to accept that in him. LK, part of why I've soured on Ray Davies and the Kinks is really bad politics on the part of Ray...some borderline racist songs, plus wanton disregard of the cultural ban on South Africa during the '80s because of apartheid. Richard Thompson and Bob Dylan are extremely sexist, which I don't find very appealing, but their artistry makes it hard to write them off for it. Morrissey is another one whose politics can be a problem--hasn't he said some things that seem to endorse fascism and anti-immigration in Britain? Then again, there are plenty of artists with great politics and terrible music, so good politics are only one small factor in liking an artist. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 46 Registered: 08-2006 |
Kurt, I've always thought it's interesting that Young's worst artistic stretch coincided with his "Reagan Period." Not that I think a conservative can't make good art, but I do think there's something about a more liberal world view (and I don't mean liberal in terms of the hardened definitions bandied about in American politics) that lends itself to quality artistic output. I think great art takes chances, pushes boundries, tests limits, and I think that's by definition antithetical to a conservative philosophy. So - for those among us who trend toward a more liberal perspective - you don't run into political problems with your favs too often. I'm curious, though, about people on the opposite end of the spectrum. For instance, what was it like for Bush-supporting Springsteen fans to see him openly campaigning for Kerry in '04? That new Dixie Chicks movie would be interesting to see, even if I don't care a great deal for them. | ||
| TROU Member Username: Trou Post Number: 52 Registered: 05-2005 |
Not political, but I could go up to throw my entire Go-betweens's record collection in a dustbin if I'd learn that they had done a concert in support of foxhunting like these old and fat rock relics : http://www.countryside-alliance.org/our_news_and_comment/from_our_Media_Centre/H ighclere_Rocks_photo_gallery/ A nightmare for a month it would be...  | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 891 Registered: 05-2005 |
Too right TROU, though i am sure you'd never sniff the GB's a million miles from these idiots. Looking at the site content and the pics, God almighty can't you just smell the money. The thing is for right or wrong our Government of wealthy cronies, hypocrites, flippity gibbets, and general useless A holes who couldn't organise and carry out one motion if their lives depended upon it, actually banned fox hunting thus making it illegal. yet they still persist. Money talks. If I did something that was illegal I'd be locked up. PATHETIC! Sorry, you got me going there on this one... | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 281 Registered: 04-2006 |
in just one word: nauseous. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1047 Registered: 03-2006 |
Leave it to Andreas to sum it up, yes that is truly sickening. Fox hunting is, to me, not one of those things about which reasonable men can differ. If you defend it, you're a sick, corrupt fuck, end of story. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 815 Registered: 04-2005 |
Goddammit, Bryan Ferry was involved in that. Does that mean I have to throw my Roxy Music albums away? | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1050 Registered: 03-2006 |
Completely personal choice. But no it doesn't mean you have to throw away all your Roxy albums, particularly if you are adept at compartmentalization. I will say this though - it's going to be hard not to think about that when I listen to him and it does change how I view him. Makes ya wonder what other archaic, barbarous entertainments he enjoys. He probably wants to bring back bear baiting. Spence is right - it's money sticking with money. All the moneyed fat cats protecting their way of life. I can't believe that old cheesebag Clapton doesn't know any better. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 468 Registered: 08-2004 |
I wonder if Noel Edmonds was there? Bryan Ferry is "Man at M&S" & a foxhunt sympathiser. He's probably doing it for his modern day Guy Fawkes' son. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 49 Registered: 08-2006 |
Funny that TROU dug this example up, because I was actually having trouble thinking of my own examples for this thread. Neil Young was the only name I could muster, and I think that was a short-time conversion to Reaganism. So, LK, yeah, it does bother me that Bryan Ferry - who I like a lot - is shilling for a pro-fox-hunting organization. Will it change the way I hear "Avalon" or "Stranded"? No, even though the idea of a bunch of self-styled "country gentlemen" on horses chasing a little fox through fields and forests with a pack of dogs makes me sick. Then again, maybe it's not as visceral for me because fox hunting really isn't an issue in the States? | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1051 Registered: 03-2006 |
I guess it is all in highly charged, how visceral, the issue is for you. I'm fairly sensitized to animal cruelty issues (keep in mind that the foxes are not just chased - they are caught, too, and literally ripped to shreds by the hounds), so that's a pretty powerful blow against Mr. Ferry, for me. I'll still probaby listen to his music...I think. An issue like immigration to the US seems less immediate to me, since it's a such a mess nobody really knows how to solve it. No one's shipping 12 million illegal immigrants back across the border. No one's stance or action is liable to be too harmful, since nothing will probably make any difference... Now, the war...that shit's become deadly serious, if you ask me. And I think there's only one position for sane people. I'd probably throw away any CDs I had by somebody who came out as a rabid war supporter. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 771 Registered: 05-2005 |
It's worth going to war to defend our right not to have to listen to Dixie Chicks CDs. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 822 Registered: 04-2005 |
I'd rather listen to a Dixie Chicks CD than one by Roger Waters or Eric Clapton, and that's regardless of the fox-hunting issue! | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1057 Registered: 03-2006 |
No shit! And that preference is multiplied by a factor of 10 if we're talking about looking at the DCs faces rather than the bloated old mugs of those old pus bags... | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 892 Registered: 05-2005 |
I still love the sound of Ferry et al from the 70's v. early 80's, in fact Avalon and Roxy are on the ghetto blaster a lot right now. Its a shame all these cool artists turn out naff isn't it? The guy who I despise is Ferry's son, whatever his stupid name, get offa the telly and outta my life. End of on this subject for me. Respec to LK, Kurt and the board. | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 152 Registered: 04-2005 |
Old Slowhand (EC) made some terrible racist remarks back in '78 during a concert in the midlands in the UK. He was apparently pretty out of it, but when you consider that here is a man that has made his career out of a black art form, it is kind of ironic/sad. Still doesn't stop me appreciating 'Layla and other assorted love songs' as a great album. Always a difficult issue seperating the art from the artist: many moons ago I was party to some appalling behaviour from a 'large' Scottish actor, who shall remain nameless (but his initials are RC). I vowed to never like his work again, but then John Byrne's wonderful 'Tutti Frutti' hit our screens and he was great in that. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 896 Registered: 05-2005 |
I am afraid I think Clapton is bollocks, never interested me, the man the music, terribly depressing persona, always looks uniniterested and miserable, rock school style guitars, gimme Jimi H or Jeff B or Jimmy Page any day of the century!! To admit to being into Clapton years ago would of had me thrown out of my gang growing up I can tell ye!! No offence Andrew | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 687 Registered: 03-2005 |
This thread has some interesting revelations. I didn't know Clapton had ever made racist remarks. That particular issue is probably the one that resonates the most deeply for me. It is genuinely shocking that somebody who grew up worshipping the music of black people could somehow separate that from the basic human reality of the people. Incidentally, Hardin, I do have fairly strong feelings about the immigration issue here because in my view it's just another costume applied to good old-fashioned racism. Notice who are the folks taking the hardest positions on the subject and listen closely to what rhetoric they are using--you will see what I mean. Actually, the one person I would expect to be in favor of fox hunting is Ray Davies, what with "Village Green Preservation Society" and "Arthur." And because it would fit consistently into his romanticized Luddite English universe, I wouldn't hold it against him either. I guess that pulls up one distinction for me in this topic: if the artist is already known as a bit of a crank with oddball attitudes, I won't object if his or her politics turn out to be retrograde as well. I guess at that point it just becomes performance art for me. | ||
| jerry hann Member Username: Jerry_h Post Number: 299 Registered: 07-2005 |
I use to love Van Morrison, for me he was almost my favourite artist seemed to fuse the higher spiritual stuff with the celtic soul and I use to love that reminiscing stuff he did.But I think he's a real stroppy git by all accounts, this has turned me off him, also he is quite chauvenistic | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1061 Registered: 03-2006 |
You are so right, Randy. (I used to work with a guy who was a total sycophant and who would actually say to the Director, "You are so right, Allen". We'd always give him shit - "Wow, you really went out on a limb there, Steve". Those are the real names, btw.) Seriously, I definitely see that thinly veiled racism, Randy. It still amazes me that, particularly here in CA, some people are so racist about Latinos, when hey, they were here first. Based on my observation, there is easily as much racism in CA as in LA. It's just that the issue is so intractable and the country is so hopelessly divided, that even the worst racist pigs are not going to be able to change things much for the better or worse, all efforts will be doomed to fecklessness, like that silly fence of Bush's which isn't even funded. And even the best intentioned people aren't going to be able to make much difference, I'm afraid. One other issue, btw, that really gets me going is stem cell research. But, I probably already opened up a can of worms by bringing up politics, so let's not go there. Boy, I hope RD is not a fox hunting apologist. Isn't fox hunting a pursuit of the rich and pampered class? RD's sympathies have always seemed squarely with the yobs, the regular guy, etc. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 469 Registered: 08-2004 |
Ray Davies is apparently new Chelsea. Now that's offensive! Van Morrison has a personality bypass, natures way of evening things out. All those dinosaur celebrities who moved out of UK when Labour got back in. We're better off without them. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 824 Registered: 04-2005 |
Can I throw an extra dig in at Eric Clapton? Besides being possibly racist, rich, miserable, pro-fox hunting, etc., he evidently isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer either. I read an interview with Christopher Guest, where he talked about his Nigel Tufnel character in This is Spinal Tap. Most people assumed it was based largely on Jeff Beck, but he said, no, it was Clapton--pretty much the epitome of the "thick" guitar player. Speaking of artists who've made racist statements, where do we stand on Elvis Costello's infamous racist slurs against Ray Charles and James Brown in his barroom fight with Bonnie Bramlett, Stephen Stills, etc.? I had a hard time forgiving him for that, no matter how much he apologized and explained his reasoning for his actions. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 50 Registered: 08-2006 |
I forgot about the EC story. He was such a contrary young man back then I marked that incident up to the blather of a drunk punk trying to provoke his audience. Not that I'm excusing the behavior, but it didn't change the way I heard his music. That may change: I hear his next album is called "Stem Cells Are People, Too." Ray Davies is producing. Clapton declined to participate, reportedly because he and Bryan Ferry regularly go stem cell hunting in the countryside. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 825 Registered: 04-2005 |
Ha--good one, Rob! So, what's the deal with Bryan Ferry's son? He's a TV personality in England or something? | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1064 Registered: 03-2006 |
I guess I never really bought that Costello was a racist and completely bought his explanation, that it was intended to outrage two admittedly worthy targets: Bramlett and Stills (I loved the nickname the Attractions were taunting Stills with: "Old Tin Nose")...he, based on what I've read about him, deeply regrets that remark to this day, though, and has paid a price, by being shunned or avoided by a lot of artists he admires... | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 471 Registered: 08-2004 |
Funny how Conservative politics for the most part = blandular fever. Costello's a lot like Van the man. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1066 Registered: 03-2006 |
Blandular fever? You're really cranking 'em out today, Jerry. I like the "personality bypass" (sounds like an old boss of mine). Costello though, not that he's bland, doesn't have conservative politics. I agree with the theory, though. I always enjoy it when the Republicans try and stage benefits here. Usually the only artists they can round up are the Gatlin Bros. and Ricky Martin. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 828 Registered: 04-2005 |
Yeah, I read something by Costello (his Get Happy liner notes, maybe?) where many, many years later, he was at an event with Ray Charles and as much as he wanted to, he knew he could not go up to the man and introduce himself. And I believe him when he said his remarks were a private fight not intended for public consumption. It's not the same as spouting racism onstage or in an interview. He made the mistake of drunkenly saying those things to a pair of new music-hating, publicity-starved has-beens. Imagine their glee at going to the press with the news that the "awful punk rocker" was a racist. Costello would have been well-served to just attack Stills and Bramlett for their shit music! | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 472 Registered: 08-2004 |
Kurt, Bryan Ferry's son broke into the House Of Commons & protested the foxhunt ban, by talking in a loud plummy voice. It did little to help their cause. Now he's on political debate shows on TV. Unofficially the new voice of upper class country dwellers. | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 287 Registered: 04-2006 |
interesting what this thread reveals. luckily i didn't noticed all those embarresments and hateful issues of these artists. to me music and politics belongs together. i could not really separate it. and if i hear such things like above i surely have more or less problems with the artist. if i really ban someone totally because of his positions? i am not sure. but for sure artists which correspond with my way of thinking have a walk-over. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 689 Registered: 03-2005 |
Hardin, Californians like to think of themselves as enlightened just because this state was not the scene of Jim Crow. But all that really means is that the people here have never had the cultural and political crisis that forced them to reexamine themselves. Are Californians racist? Gee, check out the residential patterns. I never heard the Costello story. Anybody who takes a swipe at Stephen Stills is good in my book. But what exactly did he say about Ray Charles and James Brown? On Costello's behalf, I can think of a few times when I took advantage of a clever snotty comment at the expense of someone I had no beef with. You regret it forever. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 833 Registered: 04-2005 |
Randy, the story is that EC got into a drunken war of words with Stills, Bramlett, and their buddies in a bar in Columbus, OH, and it turned into a British vs. American music argument, with (presumably) somebody in Stills's party calling British music "limey crap" or some such. Costello, drunk out of his mind, started attacking American music--which should be the sign he was talking out of his ass, because his own music is so obviously the product of great love for many American genres. At some point, defending Amercian artists, Stills or one of his cohorts said, "What about Ray Charles? What about James Brown?" And here EC lost it, calling Charles a "blind, ignorant n-word" and Brown something like a "jive-ass n-word." A very ugly and unfortunate lapse of judgment. Maybe he didn't really believe that about Charles or Brown, but the fact that he chose blatant racism to try to offend the people he was arguing with seems to show that it exists within him, even if only a tiny bit. He could have, after all, said, "Ray Charles and James Brown sucks." But he lobbed the n-word. Hard to forgive. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1071 Registered: 03-2006 |
At least he didn't call them "macacas"... | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 56 Registered: 08-2006 |
Or worse yet, redistrict them out of existence. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 775 Registered: 05-2005 |
Oscar Wilde described foxhunting as "The unspeakable pursuing the inedible". | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 692 Registered: 03-2005 |
I agree Kurt. I had hoped there was at least some wit in it. That just sounds like, well, like a certain US/Australian pseudo-Christian drunken actor around these parts. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 1081 Registered: 05-2005 |
One of Mark E Smiths most controversial lyrics is "Where are the obligatory niggers?, hey there fuckface, hey there fuckface..." I suspect MES may well be, or have been, racist. Not that I'm excusing him, but he is of an age, and comes from an area of the UK where he might never have seen many black people until he was in his late teens - I think kids these days who grow up with black friends as children find it easier to get on with each other and dont have the prejudices, and lets face it, fears of the older generations. Some of these old prejudices are well ingrained in certain people, I suspect he might well be of that ilk. Hopefully I am wrong. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1075 Registered: 03-2006 |
Talking about that Christian pseudo actor suggests an interesting parallel, Randy. Lucky Elvis had his meltdown then, before the Internets and You Tube and everybody knowing everything instantly. He might not've emerged relatively unscathed as he did. Even worse, he might've had to go into rehab! | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 292 Registered: 04-2006 |
kevin, i hope that you are wrong about MES, too. racism isn't excusable in any way - even when 'fear' about the unknown or not well known is maybe a thing which humans hold within thereself (sorry if it isn't correct english). | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 153 Registered: 04-2005 |
Hey no offence Spence (although Jimmy Page is compete shite in my book as a guitarist and I detest Led Zeppelin). My excuse for listening to Clapton is probably that I am quite a bit older than you + in the mid to late 1970s he played every year at the Glasgow Apollo, which was when I started going to live music. Some of these gigs were great and on one memorable occasion Muddy Waters was the support act (bizarre as that now seems). I can tell also tell you that my 'gang' at the time thought that carrying around triple albums by Yes was the coolest thing imaginable. Thank ye gods for punk! Coincidentally at the gig that Clapton uttered his drunken racist remarks, Van the Man cropped up as surprise guest! | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 294 Registered: 04-2006 |
i still love yessongs, andrew. it contains some kind of spped metal music when speed metal nor punk even exists. nevertheless i thank everyone who brought punk and postpuk on the map! | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 295 Registered: 04-2006 |
postpuk sounds nice.... andrew, tell about that muddy waters concert, you chosen one. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 693 Registered: 03-2005 |
I brought up the MES thing about "obligatory niggers" in another thread and somebody suggested that it was likely a case of Smith being offensive for the purpose of "winding people up." I prefer to believe that. But Kevin is much closer to the reality. Didn't Manchester and its environs suffer from a crappy economy in the 70s and 80s? If so, it is all too common for people in such circumstances to lash out at minorities, unfortunately. I will offer one small defense for Eric Clapton as a musician. If you go back to his early years, with the Yardbirds and John Mayall, his playing was genuinely lyrical and quite outstanding. Then his ego took over and that was that. | ||
| Andy Robinson Member Username: Andyblue Post Number: 51 Registered: 03-2005 |
The "nigger thing" ... As a society we always have to put down and put upon someone. I am not a great fan of The Fall, because musically I don't get it. But just because a word is used ... I will not use a word lightly but out of context what I think Smith means about the "obligatory niggers" is that society always chooses one (and as right thinking people we move on from there) group of people to scapegoat. Right now in the UK it's either (and it's changed through today even) Romanians and Bulgarians who might move here or young people in Hoodies. Incidently I heard a news story today about a woman asked to take off a hoodie or move on from a restaurant. News story ended with the comments that the said garment was pink and brought in Marks and Spencers. Maybe the waiter should of said "Pink doesn't suit you, love, so get out". Anyway, to get back to the point Kev and Randy IMHO you are on the right trail but more than that Smith is suggesting/reflecting that it's easy always to find someone to blame or exploit to move responsibility for stuff away from the establishment. Saying that is not necessarily racist. The obligatory nigger is not necessarily black. She (for it maybe) or he is just the easy target. And it ain't just the working class to blame for that. I know that the editors of the papers encouraging that didn't grow up on my Council Estate. I was (?) lucky to have parents that made the sacrifice for me to be educated to go to the local private (ex grammar) school. This was in fact the same school that Nick Griffin, leader of the BNP, had attended a couple of years ahead of me and I don't remember that he was a working class boy. It ain't about the unknown. It is about who we are encouraged to blame because it's easier than facing the real issues (while the fat are getting fatter). Jeez, mostly I just like to read on the site, but sometimes the grumpy old man in me takes over! I guess my politics and music do go hand in hand but it's not always so easy. I guess I'm not (despite being in social work) bound by political correctness so I think when I'm hacked off with someone I will call a black guy a prat, but to call him a "black prat" is unforgivable. It is complicated - the Ferrys (and particularly the son of ) I can't stand but (see an earlier thread) my Mum was a dinner lady with Brian Eno's mum and he DID grow up on my council estate so don't completely condemn Roxy Music for the sins of the singer as being right wing. However he has now nailed his colours to the mast. Sorry, guys, I stayed late at work and got drunk quick at home after. I will promise to be more restrained tomorrow ... | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 780 Registered: 05-2005 |
Great post Andy. Don't apologise for lack of restraint. | ||
| Andy Robinson Member Username: Andyblue Post Number: 53 Registered: 03-2005 |
Thanks, Padraig I am now confused by time. It's midnight here but i've just been reading a today's post from Adam Duritz on the Counting Crows board which ends "I have to go to bed but I can't seem to shut up. Goodnight" and it's like teatime in SF. What time is it for you. Don't people ever sleep! I so need to go to bed. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 781 Registered: 05-2005 |
I'm in Sydney. We're 11 hours ahead of UK time. | ||
| abigail law Member Username: Abigail Post Number: 95 Registered: 06-2005 |
politics is the last refuge of the scoundrel. anyone wanting anything to do with politics (with a VERY few exceptions) should be shot on sight. it's all just lying, stealing and cheating as art form. political opinion is different though. ian curtis voted tory but still created two of the greatest albums of all time. i guess it comes down to your own opinion. curtis was a tory with some 'interesting' views of the third reich but he was also a genius Clapton, ferry et all are just wxnkers no matter who they vote for and ive just discovered you can't say wxnkers here | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 1088 Registered: 05-2005 |
Curtis was quite an unsavoury person all told, made for great music though Ditto MES,Dylan,Lou,Lydon/Rotten, and many more | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 908 Registered: 05-2005 |
Andy, yes you are right, i don't think Mark E Smith is at all racist. I must admit, the 'n' word repulses me, esp when black people use it so willingly between themselves, I have seen it happen, not just on the telly, or in the media, so i'm not stereotyping that particular myth. I mean let's face it, women are subjected to predjudice as a whole, much as people with skin colour other than white. And, Mark E Smith had Brix in his group, ok he ended up marrying her, but she wasn't pushed to the back, she was very much up front, part of the leadership of The Fall. That to me suggests an open minded normal personality (well not totally normal, he is Mark E smith!!). If Mark E Smith mentioned those words in a lyric, it was because he was making a point in favour of people who are and have been subjected to predujices, not because he's a racist. We all suffer predujices against us. Sorry I can't spell let alone say predjudice! | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 789 Registered: 05-2005 |
Only two sleeps til the Republicans lose Congress! And hopefully the Senate as well! Woo hoo! | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 709 Registered: 03-2005 |
I'm with you emotionally, Padraig. BUT I've learned the bitter way NOT to count my chickens. I turned 18 in 1974 shortly after Nixon was run out of office. His appointed veep Gerald Ford took over. He was ok. Carter won the election in 76 because after Watergate a monkey could win. Then his presidency got hit with every conceivable external disaster possible and the eight years of Reaganism began. Then daddy Bush. Finally, an eight year golden period with Clinton--the ONLY time in my adult life that the US has had an administration I could feel good about. But even during Clinton there were some dreadful things such as his signing of the so-called "Defense of Marriage Act." I never knew that my marrying another man would automatically void all existing heterosexual marriages but there you go, I just don't read enough. Clinton also signed the 1996 Telecommunications Act which is the primary reason why we have the terrible consolidation of ownership of media now. We're in danger of having a media like Italy. Then began the medieval age . . . But I sure hope you're right!!!! | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 73 Registered: 08-2006 |
I'm with you, Randy. Things are looking up, but I'm basing that on reports I'm reading in the papers, and the media is a notoriously unreliable narrator sometimes. I can well imagine waking up Wednesday to headlines that read "Election-Night Shocker," or some variant on it. I come by that pessemism honestly. I've been voting for 22 years now, and my vote has helped elect a shockingly small number of politicians. Living in liberal Chicago, it's easy to believe everyone shares your views and opinions - that is, until the first Tuesday in November throws cold water in your face. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1088 Registered: 03-2006 |
I'm afraid to be optimistic, too, but boy it's looking promising. If the Dems win both the House AND the Senate, that will be real cause for jubilation. And, the House is looking pretty solid, the Senate not so much. One cause for hopefulness is the gubernatorial landscape - it's looking like the Dems are gonna pick up a lot of governorships, and that's important. Many more governors have become presidents than congressmen. Like you, Randy, I did sort of think and feel the country (and maybe the world) had turned a corner during the Clinton administration - things sure seemed rosy then. Silly me. Btw, you must be enjoying all the revelations of hypocrisy on gay issues that seem to spring forth daily from the Repubs... | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1090 Registered: 03-2006 |
And, if nothing else, it at least looks like Rick "Man On Dog" Santorum's happy ass is outta there.... | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 75 Registered: 08-2006 |
Amen to that, LK. My faith in the fine people of Pennsylvania is (nearly) restored. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 795 Registered: 05-2005 |
I generally don't count the chickens before they've hatched lads; but these eggs are in the pan sunny side up... (unless y'all get excited at hanging Saddam and vote Republican - then suddenly the omlette's looking off. I can't make any more egg references. Oh, one more. You can't make a cake without breaking some eggs). | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 711 Registered: 03-2005 |
I hope George Allen winds up with Padraig's proverbial eggs on his face, bullying a-hole that he is (George, not Padraig), but his race (no pun intended) is really tight. The more I tried to fix that sentence, the worse it got. It has long been my theory that a significant factor in the good 1990s economy and the lowering crime rate came from the fact that the people on the lower two thirds of the economic spectrum felt like they had a chance and an actual vested interest in the country again. Nothin in the rhetoric or actions of either Reagan, Bush I or Bush II gave them any reason to feel that way. Yeah Hardin, watching the squirming of the morals hypocrites when the lids on their dirtboxes pop open in the bright midday sun is better than porn. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 799 Registered: 05-2005 |
Thanks for the nice comments on my myspace Randy. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 298 Registered: 01-2005 |
I'll pipe in with another Clinton misdeed, NAFTA. I live in Michigan and the outsourcing of jobs has really hit us hard. Other than NAFTA and the ones Randy mentioned, I'll give Bill a thumps up. I plan to be in line at 6:30 AM on Tuesday morning to vote. We have a Bush "rubber stamp" US congressman, Mike Rogers, that I will vote against. As far as Eric, his 1964-70 output still resonates with me. I turned 18 in January of 1971 and got the Layla album as a birthday present. His comeback albums starting in 1974 and after don't hold a candle to his earlier stuff though. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1096 Registered: 03-2006 |
Sadist that I am, I've really been enjoying watching the squirming of Ken "I only got a massage from the gay prostitute and bought some meth, but threw it away without trying it" Haggard... No irony there, is there?, after meeting with Bush on a weekly basis for years to plan gay bashing strategies... | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 76 Registered: 08-2006 |
It's like the homophobic jock from high school who dates the prom queen, marries her, then leaves her and their two kids to take up with his male lover. How many times have you heard a variant on that story? I think people's repressed self-loathing regarding certain behaviors causes them to lash out at others. And that self-loathing comes from other repressed people lashing out at them in the first place. It's a ridiculous and destructive cycle. That's why I think that whole "values" voter bit is a sham. The only people with "values" as far as I'm concerned are the people who let the rest of us live the way we want to live. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 77 Registered: 08-2006 |
Jeez, on second look, my post above sounds downright libertarian coming from a dyed-in-the-wool liberal. Can I get my bona fides back if I say the Bush tax-cuts-for-the-rich were and are a miserable idea? | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 804 Registered: 05-2005 |
Too late Rob. That four minute gap between posts was enough to have you named and shamed as a libertarian throughout the world wide web. So, how does the flat tax work again? | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 714 Registered: 03-2005 |
LOL, you get your bona fides back Rob. Not everything libertarians believe in is rubbish. I do have a whole visual schtick I do for "driving in a libertarian world" but it won't work here. It does seem to be that any decent person with honest-to-god values has modesty pretty high on the list and is therefore not going to crow about his or her values or kvetch about anyone else's. Hardin, we do have to be fair. Remember Mr. "I didn't inhale?" I hate to say it, but a lot of the time it seems to me that a core American cultural value is lying, the whole caveat emptor bit. I got in trouble for lying to my parents at a crucial formative age and it ruined me for social success; since then I'm just stuck with telling people the unvarnished. Michael, living out here on one of the coasts I'm always wondering how the industrial economies are faring in the country's interior. We don't get much info in the national media. I do have a hard time believing that unemployment is really 4.4%. Maybe that's because all the folks who were laid off in the past few years by offshoring of jobs finally found crappy Walmart jobs. Padraig, you're very welcome. I always enjoy reading your reviews, even when the artist is someone I suspect I won't be able to get into. You are very good at concise concrete writing about something that isn't very concrete. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1100 Registered: 03-2006 |
Randy, I'm actually a not-too-closet Clinton fan and am thinking he was probably a pretty great Prez...so, he got a BJ...at least he understood how shit worked and wasn't criminally incompetent. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 920 Registered: 05-2005 |
LK True..."We both use Colgate toothpaste." — after a reporter asked what Bush had in common with British Prime Minister Tony Blair. | ||
| jerry hann Member Username: Jerry_h Post Number: 305 Registered: 07-2005 |
For the American guys; I'm interested in the way your system works if both houses are Democrat and the President is a Republican, how does that work. I'm sorry i don't really understand it. Alos can you explain the superbowl is it the winners of the NFL play the Winners of the AFL?Sorry for being thick about this but questions I've always wnated to ask but just embarassed that I don't actually know this. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 78 Registered: 08-2006 |
Hey, Jerry, your question is funny, not because you posed it (why should you know these things?) but because it's kind of the same question. The American governmental system is set up as a series of checks and balances. Basically, aside from passing legislation, Congress (the legislative branch) is supposed to play an oversight role over the president (the executive branch). When you get one party in power, typically that oversight role is jettisoned. It's been particularly (and some would say criminally) neglected in recent years, which is why the Bush administration has been able to run amok to the extent they have. As far as the Superbowl, it's the NFC and the AFC champions going head to head. The NFC is there to make sure the AFC doesn't get out of control, and vice versa. In the process, there's a lot of head-butting, dirty fouls, missed tackles, bad calls. Hence the similarity to American politics. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 79 Registered: 08-2006 |
By the way, happy election day to my fellow Yanks. Let's go do some damage, shall we? | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 716 Registered: 03-2005 |
Don't get me wrong, Hardin. I'm a huge Clinton fan. It's just the lawyer in me that compels me to point out both the downside and upside of something. The fact that he got some BJs while on the job is a positive plus in my book; especially the one while talking on the phone to Trent Lott. You gotta love the arch humor. Remember how the public never got enthused about the Republicans' silly impeachment effort? I'm convinced it's because all the bubbas out there approved of the BJs. They just didn't share this particular opinion with their wives. Jerry, when we have so-called "divided government" nothing happens unless the two parties reach a compromise. Most of the time that yields pretty decent results. Unfortunately, the White House still has a lot of power on its own and that's why Bush will still be able to do an impressive amount of damage. He can unilaterally change regulations by such important agencies as the Environmental Protection Agency. He can send the Attorney General's office into any sort of outrageous litigation that suits him. He can play games with the budgets. He can appoint judges to the bench during recess of Congress and, in GW Bush's case, the judges he selects don't even believe that the earth is round. But Congress has subpena power. It can finally call various White House officials to give testimony about things they don't want to reveal. This increases the possibility of Richard Cheney spending a richly deserved retirement in federal penitentiary for his shameless influence peddling and abuse of office. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 80 Registered: 08-2006 |
You go, Randy! Me, I just went and voted, then ran to the store and picked up dinner fixings and a six of beer. Tonight, I'm going to settle down in front of the TV, pop a cold one and watch those returns roll in. By the end of the night, I'll either be elated or catatonic. The heck with the Superbowl. THIS is sport, my friends. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 302 Registered: 01-2005 |
I am glad that the Bush loving nut job Ted Nugent left Michigan to live in Bush's hometown of Crawford, Texas. His house was infested with black mold, which is one of the reasons he left. Our state is better off without him. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 81 Registered: 08-2006 |
Okay, wait - I need to straighten this out. So, the Nuge's house in MI is loaded with black mold and he heads to Crawford, Texas to get AWAY from pestilence? You almost want to shake the guy and say, "Dude, you're going THE WRONG WAY!" | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 82 Registered: 08-2006 |
Actually, I hope Ted's new house gets infested with Cheney, maybe with a little Rumsfeld in the basement (that happens when it's damp and dark for prolonged periods). It's very hard to get rid of and it plays havoc with your property values. 10 million Iraqis can't be wrong! | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1101 Registered: 03-2006 |
Nugent is such a douche, it's surprising the MOLD didn't move out in disgust... Yeah, tonight it's going to be either massive highs or crushing lows. There's all kinds of Demo rallies and events around So Cal, but it depends on how it goes, whether or not I participate. I may need to wail and gnash my teeth in private... I can't resist adding, Jerry, that Bush has consolidated Executive power (read stolen) to an unconscionable degree by just doing a lot of things unilaterally and declaring that he has the power, as Executive, to do them, like all the domestic surveillance, to cite just one example. And because Congress has been in his pocket, there's been no oversight. God willing that'll all change today. If the Dems take control, hopefully those subpoenas will start falling down like snowflakes. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 816 Registered: 05-2005 |
I've hated Ted Nugent (quite apart from his vile music) since 1986 when he basically said Phil Lynott deserved to die because he was a junkie. What a %^&* (fill in your own four letter word there). | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 848 Registered: 04-2005 |
Well, as the polls have closed most everywhere, it's looking really good that the Democrats will take back Congress, and they're not out of the running to take control of the Senate as well, though it's a longshot. And three or four Republican governors went down as well. We're not out of the woods, but this is looking like the happiest election day for us "blue state" Yanks in quite awhile. Then again, the Republicans are really good at stealing elections, and there have been problems with the electronic voting machines... | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 823 Registered: 05-2005 |
Dems take House! Let's paint the town blue! BTW, what's with the colour scheme? Everywhere else in the world red is the colour of social democratic parties and blue the colour of conservatives. How come you Yanks got is backwards? | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1104 Registered: 03-2006 |
I was wondering that myself - how that started...I don't remember the specific genesis of it. It was as though you woke up and all of the sudden everything was red & blue... Help! I can't stop watching election coverage. By and large, I'm pleased, though it looks like some world class scumbags, like Macaca Boy, might have a chance of hanging in...The Governator's gonna win, though you couldn't call it unexpected. Still had to vote for Angelides. Not an attractive candidate per se, but at least he ain't a feckin Republican! | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 84 Registered: 08-2006 |
Ah, what a night. No matter how the VA and MT races pan out - and both are doable for the Dems as of this writing – yesterday turned out about as well as any lefty had a right to expect. It's an odd feeling, winning. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1105 Registered: 03-2006 |
It's particularly an odd feeling for the Dems! You're right. VA and MT seem imminently doable at this point. Oh happy day... | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 723 Registered: 03-2005 |
Webb is 6,000 votes ahead of Allen with 100% of the precincts reported. Allen doesn't have a prayer but will be a poor loser. He will force a recount. That is consistent with his personality and I'm looking forward to his slow twisting in the wind. Yes, this is nice isn't it? The overreachers are getting what they deserve. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 85 Registered: 08-2006 |
There's a statement from the Dems regarding the Senate situation here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/11/07/dems-weve-won-the-senat_n_33586.html Of course, there's a bit of PR going on, but I think it's a pretty clear-eyed breakdown of the situation going forward, and it looks very good indeed. I wouldn't have hoped for the Senate in my wildest dreams. If this works out as advertised, wow. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 303 Registered: 01-2005 |
I heard yesteday that it's Virginia law that if the margin of victory is less than 1/2 of 1% of total votes counted, a recount is mandatory. I am so glad that Allen went down as well. That's one idiot whose true nature was exposed prior to being foistered upon as a Presidential candidate. That's out the window now, no way will Republican big money back him for 2008. I can't wait for the investigations to start next year and see Bush and company squirm. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 850 Registered: 04-2005 |
Democracy still works in the U.S., despite Bush/Cheney/Rove/etc.'s best efforts to kill it. Maybe I don't have to move to Canada after all. If only the presidential election had been this year... | ||
| Wolfgang Steinhardt Member Username: Berbatov Post Number: 17 Registered: 09-2006 |
I apologize for mentioning Nugent once in the dorkiest songs-thread, I didn't know he's such an a&%hole! Seems like Vermont is the place to be - the "third way" next to North Corea and Cuba. | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 311 Registered: 04-2006 |
what about kinky friedman? | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 89 Registered: 08-2006 |
Looks like Kinky got about 12% of the vote in TX, or about half a million votes. Not bad, actually. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1107 Registered: 03-2006 |
Kinky is a god to me. Awww Rummy's outta there. Bye, numbnuts. Don't let the door hit you in the ass... | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 851 Registered: 04-2005 |
Maybe he could carry Rove and Cheney under each arm as he leaves? W minus his evil minions is nothing, so we'll let him stay to suffer for the next two years. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 924 Registered: 05-2005 |
What about Marty Feldman????????? | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 825 Registered: 05-2005 |
I had a feeling it would all work out! Of course, I generally have these feelings regardless of whether it all works out or not. The sweetest of all for me is that the Karl Roveification of US politics is over. The lowest common denominator ploy did not work this time. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 827 Registered: 05-2005 |
Just saw this headline on CNN. Bush sees common ground on immigration, wages LOL! It reads like an Onion headline! It is shocking to me that there are millions of workers in America earning less per hour than I was getting when I lived in Boston in 1989/90. Come on Nancy, raise the standard of living a bit. Oh, and I have one word for Mr Bush. Quack. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 828 Registered: 05-2005 |
Senate goes Dem! Macaca boy Allen is gone! Re. Bush - If it looks like a lame duck... And it walks like a lame duck... It's a lame duck. Quack. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1111 Registered: 03-2006 |
Bye bye Macaca Boy, you mean, racist shitheel...good riddance to some bad bad rubbish... It's going to be a long-ass two years for ole Bushie... | ||
| Elizabeth Robinson Member Username: Liz_the_new_listener Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2006 |
Cheering here in blue Minnesota - though we still have 'Pawlenty' of trouble governor wise. A lot of the senators are women nationwide. A pleasant surprise about Rumsfeld, a relief about Santorum, Allen, and some others. Impeaching the imitation Alexei in the White House would be a waste of time. Better just to undo what he did. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 927 Registered: 05-2005 |
Donald Rumsfeld is WAS evil. Thank God he's gone, mind you Bush' father's mate has replaced him....  | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 90 Registered: 08-2006 |
I don't know if anyone caught Bush's press conference yesterday, but it was a strange and wonderful piece of political theater. Bush's press conferences are bizarre in the best of circumstances, but this one was even more so. He was, by turns, dazed, petulant, bored, combative, confused and confusing. I don't know if it's on YouTube, but it's worth watching. You really get the sense of a man entirely overmatched by his position, which is frightening and fascinating, too. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 928 Registered: 05-2005 |
Yes Rob I saw it, it was like Ricky Gervais in the Office, addressing his staff, even the cameras panned to the shocked n awed faces of the journalists!!!! | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 92 Registered: 08-2006 |
Spence, the Ricky Gervais comparison might be the most apt I could imagine! Cheers! | ||
| Cichli Suite Member Username: Cichli_suite Post Number: 196 Registered: 08-2004 |
There are several clips on YouTube of the conference - I thought he looked and sounded like Nixon. I like the David Brent comparison - it was like watching The (oval) Office - I found it almost hard to watch as he stumbled over almost every question. "I thought we were goin' to do fine yesterday - shows what I know" | ||
| jerry hann Member Username: Jerry_h Post Number: 308 Registered: 07-2005 |
Rob,Randy and Hardin thank for the politics lesson, I understant it alot better now, It would be the same if there was a Hung parliament in the house of commons. Maximum respect to the USA for having the balls to look into the fiasco which is Iraq, unlike our smug politicians over here. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1120 Registered: 03-2006 |
Curious, Jerry. What is the feeling about Iraq from people you meet in your day to day life. Do you actually come across people who support the war, think it was a good idea? This board obviously skews pretty liberally, not everybody in America feels the same way as some of the people who post here. Although, thank you Jesus, more than previously suspected disliked the direction the Administration was taking us in... But, I come across plenty of fairly hawkish people, and even more when I lived in Louisiana, a big time red state. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 851 Registered: 05-2005 |
Still though, I'll miss Rummy and his cheeky wee smile. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 307 Registered: 01-2005 |
With the a lot of members of Bush senior's staff being recruited to save the country from his sons neo-con cowboy diplomacy, it will be interesting two years. Dick Cheney seems to be the lone neo-con hold out, unless Dubya ignores the adivce from his fathers staff memnbers and sticks to his guns. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1144 Registered: 03-2006 |
Though his term is constitutionally mandated, it'd be lovely if Cheney could be eased out, too, somehow...he was Rummy's handmaiden... | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 865 Registered: 04-2005 |
The next couple of years are going to be even more stressful for the Bush Administration than the previous few. I wonder if Cheney's health will hold out? Since it's not cool to wish ill health on people (even Cheney), I'll just hope he steps down for health reasons if nothing else. It never fails to amaze me at how we look back at Bush senior's administration and it seems vastly more reasonable than his son's. It didn't feel that way at the time... | ||
| jerry hann Member Username: Jerry_h Post Number: 314 Registered: 07-2005 |
LK sorry not to get back to you sooner but I know no one who supports the war-well may be my father in law who generally supports most things the Americans do.But everyone else apart from most of the labour and conservative party. But your average man (who I meet on a daily basis in the ocurse of my work)are not in favour and think we've made a right mess of it.No one was in favour of Saddam but somehow we've added to the problems in the middle east and not sorted anything out. It also strikes me as hypocritical that we are asking Iraqs neighbours to help sort it out. If I was Syrian I'd tell them to F@*k off and sort it themselves. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 309 Registered: 01-2005 |
Not to mention a destablized Iraq and a weakened US ground force only benefits Iran. Bush and the neo-cons have totally blundered things in the Middle East. I bet Iraq ends up split into 3 seperate states with shared oil revenues. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 110 Registered: 08-2006 |
No kidding, Michael. The Iraq debacle never should have happened - a classic example of ideology trumping common sense. Now we're facing another Middle East theocracy, or worse, and a US military that's probably dissprited and depleted. Not to mention all the money that's been flushed down the crapper. We can't insure our countrymen but we can spend $500 billion destabilizing an entire region? I wish we'd have spent that money in Afghanistan if we couldn't spend it here. You want to win hearts and minds? Kabul should look like Seattle by now. It's a missed opportunity of historic proportions. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1308 Registered: 03-2006 |
OK, so we're a month down the line from Nov. 8th and all the euphoria it brought...absolutely nothing has happened, apart from the quagmire getting graver and deterioratinger every day and Bushie getting lambasted more and more every day as he watches his poll numbers slide like oily water down a bathtub drain...Still, nothing has changed - the ISG Report is already buried under 10 feet of dust, as though it never happened, and nobody has any ideas. The only thing that could possibly work - tens of thousands of more troops - is pretty much a non-starter, at least for any amount of time.... So, my question is - where is this ungodly mess going to find any hope of some kind of conclusion? Will the only solution be to actually impeach the Prez? Would that penetrate his bubble? Or, will the Dems, if they can find their testes satchel (as Borat would put it) have to withdraw funding? | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 365 Registered: 04-2006 |
hardin, the sad truth is: elections do not change anything, otherwise they were forbidden. many greetings from berlin andreas | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 200 Registered: 08-2006 |
The bright side, LK, is that the Dems haven't officially taken office yet. It takes a while to sweep a do-nothing Congress out the door. Rumor has it they found a catatonic Santorum curled up under his office desk, sucking his thumb and holding a Bible and a severely edited copy of the Constitution (the Bill of Rights was entirely scratched out). It took seven Capitol policemen to remove the poor man. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 201 Registered: 08-2006 |
BTW, I'm entirely convinced the reason Bush isn't proposing a course of action for Iraq before the new year is because he doesn't want to give the new Congress too much lead time to tee off on what will, undoubtedly, be a proposal fit for the wood chipper. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 843 Registered: 03-2005 |
I don't expect much. The Dems are famously uncoordinated and too many of them (read Hillary) are afraid of offending folks who would never vote for them anyway. And I think Andreas got it right, sad to say. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 1051 Registered: 05-2005 |
Andreas and Randy, please do not be so cynical. If progressive people think really think that then the right wingers will always win. That they did not this time is a great credit to the American public. Give the Democrats some time - Bush didn't all but ruin America's international reputation overnight, it took years of careful planning. It will also take years to right those wrongs. The cause will be greatly helped by President Obama come January 2009. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 204 Registered: 08-2006 |
President Obama. Ah, my home state senator. He did a pitch-perfect bit on Monday Night Football this week. Very charming. And I'm with you, Padraig. Chin up, fellow cynics. I think things will change. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1314 Registered: 03-2006 |
Yeah really, Andreas and Randy. Youse guys are really harshing my mellow...I was merely venting - I don't think there's cause to completely give up hope. And it is tremendously satisfying watching Dubya squirm... You are some deeply cynical fellers, that's for sure...Maybe it's all that depressing music you listen to...pull out those Partridge Family records and get happy! Up with People! | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 214 Registered: 08-2006 |
True story: When I was a kid, we had an Up With People guy stay with us when the troop was performing in my town. He taught me how to incinerate spiders with a lighter and a can of Lysol. That's all I remember about Up With People (subhead: Down With Arachnids). | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 367 Registered: 04-2006 |
hardin, padraig. i am sorry if someone of you feels offended. that wasn't my intention. i don't think i am a cynical. i am one who raised up with ernst bloch's 'the principle of hope', but since i am a political activist i am always been bamboozled by the choice to vote for the smaller evil. that's the reason for that short pointed remark. with a lot of greetings your depressive german fellow | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1315 Registered: 03-2006 |
Andreas, I was just joking - I wasn't offended at all...And, I thought your sentiment was great, though deep down, I hope it isn't true. And hey, at least we, for the most part, "threw the bums out", so maybe good things will come of it. Many greetings in return, your (semi) happy American pal ps - Rob, that explains a lot. I'm sure that turned you into the leftie, Commie GoBees fan you are today. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 1058 Registered: 04-2005 |
Our last election here in the States proved that democracy isn't entirely a farce--I was having my doubts. Whether the Dems get their shit together in time for the '08 presidential election, I'm not so sure. If they can't get solidly behind someone charismatic (say, Barack or Hilary) and pick another droning stiff like Kerry, the Republicans will have a lot of reason to be optimistic. In that scenario, I hope McCain is their candidate and not, say, Jeb Bush. If Jeb becomes our next president, I'm pretty sure most of the Americans on this board will be on the first plane to Canada, Australia, or wherever. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 847 Registered: 03-2005 |
No chance of Jeb. I'd say USians are pretty tapped out on the Bush family. I see a number of promising Dem presidential candidates. Obama for sure so long as he doesn't flame out early. Edwards very possibly; he's had four years to become more substantial and he appears to have learned not to soft-pedal his core beliefs. Hilary? Sorry, she has no more charisma than Kerry. Gore has no charisma but so many people now realize that he's been right on everything large; having core beliefs, expressing them and being right can substitute for charisma. Rob, what was "Up With People" about anyway? I don't remember. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 1059 Registered: 05-2005 |
Andreas, I wasn't offended either. I agree with Randy, the Dems should not run with Hilary. No chance of a win with her. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 216 Registered: 08-2006 |
Randy, Up with People was - as I recall - this insufferable review about tolerance and peace and love and... oh, god, I'm feeling woozy. Basically, they sang and danced to tunes so saccharin they'd turn your hair white. That's why I've always found the torched-spider story so funny. The Simpsons parodied Up with People numerous times, in the form of a group called Hooray for Everything. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 1060 Registered: 04-2005 |
Remember when Hooray for Everything did "Walk on the Wild Side" at a halftime show? And, by the way, I don't wany Hilary to be the Demo candidate either, but I think she'd have a better chance of winning than some of the careerist drones that always run. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 218 Registered: 08-2006 |
Ha! That "Walk on the Wild Side" bit was classic. And I'm loving the fact that the two front-running Dem candidates are a woman and an African-American, and that, so far at least, the discussions of gender and race have been so muted. It's like when Bill Clinton got asked about a billion times about his drug use in '92, then eight years later a former cocaine addict occupies the White House and everybody shrugs it off. After a while, all these stupid barriers to the White House fall, seemingly overnight, and it's hard to tell what triggered the change. Hearing people argue about Obama and Clinton as candidates - not as stand-ins for some kind of sterotype - does my liberal heart good. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1316 Registered: 03-2006 |
Must speak up in defense of Hill. I think she's quite an able politician, who's acquitted herself admirably as Senator in New York. I think she's likable, smart and incredibly capable...of course, there is a certain cohort of people who don't like her, but I wonder if that'd be cancelled out by all the people who would think, "holy crap, this is our chance to have a woman president - I have to vote for her!" She brings with her a huge war chest ($17 mill) and pretty high poll numbers (higher than Obama by a factor of two, at this point), not to mention the halo effect that will be in effect, due to the country's undying love of Bubba... I like Obama, and unquestionably he has a certain rock star momentum going at the moment, but I wonder if he really has what it takes to go all the way, wonder if he is, as the Cole Porter song goes, "too hot not to cool down"...also, he really is vulnerable to attacks about his lack of depth and breadth of experience...Of course, if he's the candidate I'm voting for him! | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 850 Registered: 03-2005 |
First let me make quite clear that if she's the nominee I will vote for her, but Hilary has never appealed to me at any time. She reminds me far too much of the uptight something-or-others that I went to law school with. I agree that she's done a great job as Senator Pothole in New York and that's NOT meant to be an insult. She's been honestly paying her dues and I respect her for that. But she does not have honest-to-God charisma and she lacks an air of authenticity; she just cannot stop herself from blatantly trying to play the middle ground even when there isn't a middle ground. Her position on Iraq has been indefensible from the get-go. I see the country in a serious mess which will only be throbbing even worse by the time of the election. I'm not only thinking of Iraq; I'm thinking of our total inaction on climate change and energy independence, our overwhelming public debt, the yawning expansion in the chasm between the top 1% and the rest of the population and the economic disintegration of the interior of the country. I think this calls for someone with serious passion and vision. And, crappy speaker that he is, I still see Al Gore as that candidate. We've had the gifted but feckless Rhodes scholar boy wonder (who did a pretty decent job, all things considered) and we've had the spoiled scion frat boy (who has been an unalloyed disaster). The mess that has developed calls for a grownup now. I wish Russ Feingold would run but he's made it clear he will not. So I continue to hope for Al Gore. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1318 Registered: 03-2006 |
Well, let's not forget, either, that Al Gore ACTUALLY WON, once...I would agree that that would be an appealing prospect. And howzabout this dream ticket: Gore/Obama...wouldn't that make all of us lefties piss our pants! Don't agree so much about Hill, obviously. I think there are a lot of people who find her likable, if not exactly overflowing with personality. What's more important to me, though, is that she, like her hubby, like (increasingly) big Al, is a wonk. She knows how stuff works - the government, the economy, the environment. You wouldn't have the competence gap you have now, and I think she might have a potential handle on solving some of those admittedly cataclysmic problems you mention... Also, I decry her stance on the war, and seeking the middle ground, as well, but am not sure if it's pandering, or just being a smart politician. After all, when Bill did it, it was called "triangulation" and he got plaudits for being a savvy navigator of the system , and it allowed him to get a lot of real things done, like improving the lot of the working poor in the country, having a credible foreign policy, balancing the budget, etc... So, I dunno...not to be simplistic or reductionist, but I'm voting for whatever candidate the Dems stand up...and I definitely ain't voting for that numbnuts, McCain. Now there's Mr. Middle Ground. I can't believe what a complete ho he's become... | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1333 Registered: 03-2006 |
God bless America! I was just reading about the new Miss USA, who, among other things, was caught using cocaine, getting drunk at various chi-chi watering holes around NY, sleeping around, and last but not least, making out with Miss Teen USA. In short, my kind of Miss USA. For the first time in a long time, I felt proud to be an American! And, the Donald is going to give her another chance. Awww.... | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 1076 Registered: 05-2005 |
I have got to google that story. Wow. It's got it all. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1337 Registered: 03-2006 |
It is the American Dream, writ large. Try and find an article with pictures - she is a very lovely young woman. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1383 Registered: 03-2006 |
More troops? All I can say is, what the fuck? | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 258 Registered: 08-2006 |
We [heart] Your Kids. Vote Republican '08. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 378 Registered: 01-2005 |
I vote to let Squeaky Fromme out of jail, give her some target practice, and then let her do her thing. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 1127 Registered: 04-2005 |
We promise to visit you in jail when you're dragged away for your treasonous comments, Michael. No, wait...they'll drag you away in the middle of the night and detain you somewhere nobody knows about. Seriously, I'm going to naively have faith in the Demos in the House and Senate and the growing number of antiwar Republicans and others to decide that this is the last straw and start impeachment proceedings against Bush. It's time for them to take off the gloves and go after him. He's not the emperor or dictator, despite what he believes in his deluded little walnut brain. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 379 Registered: 01-2005 |
Yeh, maybe you guys should check out plane fares to Tunguska. As to which gulag I'll end up in, who knows? | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 261 Registered: 08-2006 |
They'll still give you Internet access so you can post here, right Michael? | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 381 Registered: 01-2005 |
I hope so! I can't stand to listen to Bush talk, so I doubt that I'll watch his speach tonight. | ||
| Matthias Treml Member Username: Matthias Post Number: 187 Registered: 05-2005 |
This thread is both enlightening and hilarious. Typical of this forum. Love it. People here have such respect for one another that they are able to tease and provide insight and no one gets offended. I hope to live during a time where we have a great president, one that most people recognize as a real leader and ethical person through and through. I know that historians and revisionists tend to deify past presidents, but I'd love to have voted for someone whom I believed in and also for that person to come through and restore the respect I hold for this office and for this country. I don't care what political party bumpersticker they slap on him or her. I measure a wo/man by her/his actions. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 384 Registered: 01-2005 |
I agree with you comments Matthias. Some othes critcal components are a staff that is encouraged to express all viewpoints and is free to express them without fear of being shunned. The staff must come from different backgrounds that would foster different viewpoints. The next President must not be dogmatic and be able to sift through the entire gammet of views on any issue, and make the choice based on careful examination of each viewpoint. These are all things that have been absent the past six yers under the current administration. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1400 Registered: 03-2006 |
Absofuckinlutely, Michael. At the risk of sounding more cornball than usual, we really need to get back to those virtues that made this country great. Free speech, free exchanges of views without either party being vilified, civility. Way back in the day, the US wore a big, white hat. We were the good guys and world leaders. Things like torture and domestic surveillance would have been verboten, if anybody even had the impulse to use them, which of course they didn't. There are some extremely promising candidates on deck, Matthias. So you may live to see that dream come to fruition. LK is a perpetual optimist. Now, if Forster would just put out that once in a lifetime, career making album. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 385 Registered: 01-2005 |
LK, I believe that Forster has an album that will top Danger In The Past in him. It's just so unfortunate that we had to lose Grant though, as the loss of him will no doubt be the dominate theme of the album. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1402 Registered: 03-2006 |
I agree, MB. I'm looking for him to blow us all away with a complete, stone masterpiece. Forster is, despite being a little weird and eccentric at times, intelligent, so I'm hoping the stuff about Grant will be understated, which, to me, is way more effective than if he were to spill his guts all over the place. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 387 Registered: 01-2005 |
Bush's round #5 of troop surges in Iraq harken back to the Battle of Fredicksburg, where repeated attacks by the Union Army lead by General Ambrose Burnsides up the slope of Marye's Heights towards the Confederates who were behind a stone wall at the top, all failed. Wave after wave of Union soldiers were sent up the slope to be slaughtered due to Burnsides failure to recognise the obvious, that the Confederates were to entrenched at the top of Marye's Heights, and they were not going to be overrun. Bush, like Burnsides 144 years before him, cannot make the destinction between the various stages between the initial phase of a plan and total failure. | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 205 Registered: 04-2005 |
Art + Politics: following my rereading of her novel 'The God Of Small Things' I did some research on Arundhati Roy. If you have 45 minutes to spare in your day, watch this speech from 2002. An incredibly articulate and quietly powerful speaker. She "joins all the dots" between the powerful agencies at work in our world. http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=9 45405493000735497&q=come+september+roy A film-maker, impressed by what he saw + heard edited together the film that you can find at www.weroy.org. But, personally speaking I do not need the images to feel totally gripped by the speech. | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 425 Registered: 04-2006 |
thanks, andrew, my comrade, thanks. 45 minutes that makes the world not a better place, but 45 minutes which gives you back the faith that not everyone have gone crazy. |