| Author | Message | ||
     Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 1193 Registered: 03-2005 |
The recent entries about prog rock and also (in an entirely different way) the discussion about Wilco got me thinking about one of my long-held truisms. Is there an inverse relationship between a musician's ability to play and his or her creativity? Are the better players generally less imaginative and less likely to write a great song? Do artists gradually lose their creative spark as they improve as musicians? Exceptions to the rule? One of the things that drew me to the Go Betweens in the first place is the way that they improvised around their limitations as players. This forced them to concentrate more on writing good songs but also forced them to keep the songs within a fairly easy range of playability. I view the Fall as another example. Back when they were a real band they made the most of what they were able to do. They could not simply create any sound they wanted. That's the biggest problem I have with more recent Fall records. They're not a real band anymore and whoever MES gets to back him will always be super proficient. And my ears report that they offer far fewer sonic surprises or delights. An exception to this truism? I'd say the Bad Seeds. Their increased proficiency seems to have led them to more subtle and fascinating sounds. | ||
| frank bascombe Member Username: Frankb Post Number: 84 Registered: 01-2007 |
On the whole I'd agree think of the great punk bands who were creative but not very proficient.The gobees are the obvious choice but also lots of other major artists who are great songwriters but not virtuose?e.g Neil Young, Costello, Waits (?) Shane McGowan,Wire,I could go one. On the other hand how many talented muscicians are limited in their composition, classical music is full of them,same with prog rock. But does that mean being a cr"£p guitar player I have some hidden song writing talents??--likely not in my case | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1948 Registered: 03-2006 |
Yeah, an interesting and fun theory, just not, in all cases, true. You could find many gifted artists, musically speaking, who also happened to be extremely creative - Jimi Hendrix, Stevie Wonder, Sly Stone and Joni Mitchell, et al. Same for the flip side of the equation: there are scads of artists with absolutely no ability who've also made shitty records with zero musical capability: your Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson, your Grand Funk Railroad. That said though, the dynamic certainly kicked in with the Go-Betweens. I do think their musical limitations forced them to work on, hone, their songs until every musical part - each bass line, cymbal ride, guitar lick, etc. - gave maximal musical impact. Which is why their stuff holds up so well to repeated playings - without being too "busy", it is chock full of melodic and creative goodness. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 617 Registered: 08-2006 |
I think what this boils down to is that songwriting and playing - although they do (and often times, have to) cooexist - are really two different skills. Some people have one, some people have both, some people have none (see LK's examples above). A lot of the most technically proficient musicians I know are sidemen and happy with the role. Likewise, a lot of the songwriters I know are decent but not exceptional musicians. For me, at least, it comes down to time. You can spend days locked away learning licks and riffs or you can spend that time composing. There's not a ton of time to do both. So I guess in answer to Randy's question, I think, by and large, your hypothesis is correct: More often then not, your best (in technical terms) players and your best songwriters tend not to overlap. And I think it's a matter of time and temperament. That's simplistic and there are lots of exceptions (again, see LK's list above), but I think it's a generalization that carries some truth in it. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 1380 Registered: 04-2005 |
There's a lot to be said for not being constrained by conventional or "acceptable" musical chops. And understanding "proper" songwriting structure is overrated--for some, getting better musically becomes a creative straightjacket. Most of my favorites were very primitive in their early days: Roxy Music, Velvet Underground, Wire, Talking Heads, Go-Betweens, etc., and some of them got a lot less interesting as they gained skill and experience--Bryan Ferry and Roxy being the #1 example. And though they were always musos, Steely Dan went from having some rough edges to driving themselves crazy (and completely blanding out their music) going for musical perfection. But there are some who are extraordinary musicians and great artists, granted--besides the ones already named, I'd add Richard Thompson, Miles Davis, Kristin Hersh (a sorely underrated guitarist), and Bob Mould, who is the rare rock musician with perfect pitch, or so I've read. However, I would much rather listen to, say, Beat Happening than Toto (the ultimate studio hack muso band), so I guess if I'd have to pick one, I'd say I'll take ideas and enthusiasm over playing ability. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 1587 Registered: 05-2005 |
I think as well as the scenarios that Randy paints, chemistry is another important factor. Joy Division werent the most accomplished musicians but they would never have been as powerful as a group if even one member wasnt part of that foursome. Ditto The Clash. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 1521 Registered: 05-2005 |
Good question Kurty baby! Howvere don't think i can answer it. Its hard to say. There are obvious exceptions to the rule...in terms of sad old bands, oasis, for me their first pub rock album wass a gift, then they blew it with everything that came after, and all because they swapped the meloncholy infinate sadness of the semi-acoustic for the dreaded les Paul. The Bad Seeds thing you mention is spot on. Bad Seeds sort of mix the original 4AD aesthetic don;t they, you know the jarring rough dagger sounding trash of early Birthday Party withthe beauty that was Ivo's collective - this Mortal coil. The rough with the smooth. And this is down to their openess and proficiency, there's no doubt, and they are better for it. This thing about mellowing out. It either helps or hinders. For me, personally, playing music wise, I couldn't go into a studio and play the guitar like i used to, like josef K. I go in now and reach for the acoustic. Most groups/artists seem to do this, and I think its like growing old and comfortable in your skin, playing or writing a song on an acoustic or basing a song around asome nice orchestration i suppose helps the creative spark you are on about. We're supposed to get less creative as we get older, opposite for me, as I was shy in my younger years, I am learning and able to do what I want to do nowadays musically, where as my creative juices wre always thwarted by ego maniacs turning up to 11 on their marshall stacks, even when I supported Radiohead and they were only on 5 (they played quiet live!) One thing about the acoustic orchestration thing is though, its a get out clause for the marketeers, in order to set a new talentless pratt with a gravelly voice and no songwriting ability whatsoever up with a top 10 hit, that pisses us all off, move over Mr Blunt, leave quietly Mr Gray (he's not a bad lad tho!) Sorry kev! ERM. THE END. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 1522 Registered: 05-2005 |
Sorry Good question Randy! | ||
| Stuart Wilson Member Username: Stuart Post Number: 57 Registered: 10-2006 |
It holds true to a certain extent in classical music too, I think - most of the great composers were proficient but not expert musicians, while the great instrumentalists were, are, more often interpreters rather than composers – though there are exceptions inevitably here too, i.e. Mozart for one. Perhaps the discipline required to become a truly great interpreter extinguishes – or rechannels? – creativity to a certain extent, just as the ability to create – as Rob was saying – doesn’t leave time to work on technique. What does seem different in the two fields, classical & rock, is that while composers tend to produce their most acclaimed work when they’re old, rockers tend to do it in the first flush – it often astonishes me how people like Bowie & Ferry & Reed could start off so brilliantly and then end up slopping out squidge after about ten years. Where did the spark go? And yet the GoBies, well, I think they just got better & better, I love the three “last” albums – what a terrible bloody word… And I think there is, as I said elsewhere, a lot of creativity in some prog rock, early Yes, early Genesis, Floyd, Aphrodite’s Child, Popol Vuh, Traffic (are they prog?)…before bombast & noodle became endemic and sterile. | ||
| Geoff Holmes Member Username: Geoff Post Number: 213 Registered: 05-2005 |
The Kinks said it best. "He's a session man/ a top musician/ a chord progression/He's not hired to think/just play/A session man...." Still cracks me up and how true! In Australia we have to put up with guitar w4nkers like The Emmanuel brothers being lauded for being completely over the top tossers! But don't forget Ygwe Malmsteen!!!!! And I BET all of you have seen a really nice guitar in a shop that some w4nker shop jock says something like, " I don't really play guitar - my instrumenet is keyboard" only to have them pull out some 5 minute w4nk fest that has all the shop staring! And THEN they say, " would you like to play?"!!!!!!!! Mind you, I am partial to early Floyd and Traffic and somehow, the solo at the end of Dear Mr Fantasy is always "real"(MAAAAAAAAAAN). | ||
| Stuart Wilson Member Username: Stuart Post Number: 58 Registered: 10-2006 |
I once got in a three-way fist-fight over whether Akkerman could "out-guitar" Steve Howe and Jimmy Page...well, more of a Doc Martin fight maybe. Ah, those were the days. The Led Zep fan won - no surprise there. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 1194 Registered: 03-2005 |
Geoff your story reminds me of why I enter guitar shops as seldom as I can get away with. A few years ago I bought a really nice secondhand acoustic bass. I got it to use for recording my own songs. The proprietor introduced me to some other customer who could obviously play guitar very well and handed me the bass and said "you can jam together." I can't play worth a %$#. I don't even know my scales. I just hunt out a decent-sounding bass line to fit whatever song I've written, practice it and then record it. I sat there hunched over the instrument hiding my very red face consoling myself "ok, every horrible thing in life comes to an end eventually." But you can be damn sure I took the first chance to bolt out of there with the instrument. Then there was the time I went into a certain high-volume store to get a set of strings for my electric twelve and the little twit at the counter said "Nobody's played one of those since the 80s. We don't have strings for that." The store probably had about a dozen electric 12's on display. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 612 Registered: 01-2005 |
I'll add Televison and Gang of Four who were exceptions to the rule. They could certainly write a good tune and had plenty of musical chops to boot! Kurt, as far as jazz musicians, you can certainly go beyond Miles. John Coltrane, Bud Powell and Thelonious Monk are three that I would put above Miles. Then again, I could be biased as I don't care that much for the sound of the trumpet as being the feaured instrument in a jazz band compared to the sax or piano. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 618 Registered: 08-2006 |
Very funny, Randy. And very true. Every time I've purchased a guitar, the sales guy has handed it to me and looked expectant, waiting for me to haul off on some crazy-ass solo. I'm a rhythm player, so I strum some chords, go up the neck a bit, check the action, the intonation, basic stuff. And the disappointment is always palpable, like the guitar in question is some thoroughbred being sent off to petting zoo. I hate guitar stores. | ||
| Little Keith Member Username: Manosludge Post Number: 1953 Registered: 03-2006 |
I'm reminded of the great gag from, I think, "Wayne's World", where there's the prominently posted sign that reads, "No Stairway". A great comment on that ambience you guys justly deride. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 1383 Registered: 04-2005 |
I hate going into Guitar Center for the very reason Randy mentions. My standard "test" of a guitar begins with playing the "Sweet Jane" riff and doesn't get much more technically advanced than that. And I'm too shy to crank up the amp to hear it, which I'd have to do because there are always at least five other guys in the store playing their lightspeed-fingered Yngwie runs at top volume. I get a headache in about two minutes at that place. Funny thing is, I bet most of those guys can't play anything BUT their w*nky lead runs. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 1529 Registered: 05-2005 |
I fu*kin love geetar stores, they are still full of wayne's world followers, its fu8ckin amazing!!!!! Still to this deay, I walk in the local store called PMT!!!! Can you even believe the name of th fu*kin store! Walk over to look at the overpriced crap range of Fender's looking for a Jag, only to find the inferior Jap version. I continue looking for a superior US made model of the '63 Jag. No way, nothing doing. I turn around and there's a guy with "No Stairway" on his baseball cap. He has matted ginger hair and Weezer style NHS specs on, and he's playing Sweet Child O Mine on a horrible Kramer style geetar, its even got the horrid locking trem, holy shit, in England too!!!! So, I pick up a shit Tanglewwod acoustic and start playing Cattle and Cane. Someone comes over to tell me what a fu*kin greeat geetar, the Tanglewood is for £99. I ask if they have any pre CBS Fender Jags in stock, the guy can't believe iam asking for such a thing. No, but he can sell me Kurt Cobain style jagstang for £500. He's wearing a Metallica tee shirt. i walk out the store, on the way out there's a play in a day video thing, its some metal freak from WASP or some group playing a zillion scales in one fifth of a second, whooahhhhhh!!!!!. Jeeeeeeeeeeeeezus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 615 Registered: 01-2005 |
Rob, Being a rhythm player, I bet you would seel the farm to have one of the 250 made of these beauties: http://www.rickbeat.com/modelslibrary/35 0sh/350sh.htm | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 1386 Registered: 04-2005 |
It would take a brave man to play a Susanna Hoffs signature guitar on stage. It's not as bad as a pink Hello Kitty Strat, but it's getting there. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 616 Registered: 01-2005 |
Kurt, The 350SH seems to be a hot collectors item on the Rickenbacker websites. I always liked the looks of the jetblack and white Ricks, with or without a signature on them. | ||
| Matthias Member Username: Matthias Post Number: 223 Registered: 05-2005 |
Randy, You know this is my kind of question! I like to come up with themes or generalities for most things, but as you have often pointed out in my own threads, there is always an exception. Many times, there are many. I do think though that the un-educated mind and hand (in the classical sense) more often is the more imaginative one and therefore the more creative. I think it is born out of necessity. In many ways, Robert and Grant were extremely ambitious and remained so throughout their career. In the beginning, they loved music but couldn't play. No matter. An amateur songwriter and guitar player myself, I realize that many of my earliest songs and lyrics were born from inspiration. Over time and with an eye on others as I try to write my own "Cattle and Cane" or "Head Full of Steam" it has become increasingly difficult to find uniqueness or to be originally creative. Maybe it is coupled with age and maturation. When you're young, there are many firsts. As you age, the roller coaster of adolescence evens out to the middle age country road. This isn't a bad thing to me but it can be if you are seeking new inspiration and new creativity. So perhaps it is musical proficiency and age that impacts the creativity of artists. But I also think learning to play music is like a mountain with plateaus. You practice and reach a certain level of proficiency and may stay there for a while until you make another jump. I study the bands I like, even some I don't, and I enjoy plotting out their best work and type of work. Trying to figure out what I consider their mistakes and triumphs and what made the difference between this work and that work. You can feel the creative energy at certain points in an artist's career and I believe it does happen when there is great chemistry and new chemistry especially. I love to see bands use different producers and add different players to the mix. The Go-Betweens are great but to me they really flourished with Amanda in the band. She fleshed out their songwriting with her melody lines on instruments that are not present in most pop music (For further proof, listen to their last show of 1989 where they do some of their what would become solo stuff and notice how gorgeous they are with her.) And whether it is because of the multiple record labels or not, the production between their chronological albums is quite different. I like that. To me, Rachel Worth is minimalist and Oceans Apart is lush. It adds to the whole by not re-treading the same formula. To make another analogy, U2 were similar in the sense of ambition vs. musicianship. Out of Control is quite clever for a band who couldn't play. Many can argue that they've become formulaic recently. But they have gone down several very diverse paths (albeit not all have worked) and have worked with other people to foster creativity. Most notably The Unforgettable Fire which is remarkably different than their first three albums. Achtung Baby. Pop. They've taken risks and pushed each other very hard. I'm curious to see how they fare with Rick Rubin. They need to move away from Eno, Lanois, and Lillywhite for a bit. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 1547 Registered: 05-2005 |
I can live with the idea Matthias, that un-educated is THE WAY TO GO MAN!!!!!! I know fuck all about musical theory, reading it, understanding it, I don't know one note on a keyboard, i never had lessons on any of the instruments I play, guitar, bass, keys, drums, percusssion, and you know what, I feel good about that fact. I think everyone shouyld run out of music college and get a fuckin life and stop reading about bullshit and play it, DON't READ IT!!!!!!!!!!! And I'm SHIT! (only oking, I think I'm OK...)  |