| Author | Message | ||
     kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 1953 Registered: 05-2005 |
The fragile truce between NME and Morrissey has been broken after he has sued the NME over an interview published this week which centres on allegec racist comments which he claims have been taken out of context. Seems strange that a man who was born the son of Irish immigrants and has spent the last 15 years or so in either L.A. or Rome has negative views on any immigrants. Of course, I havent read the article, and obviously dont know what else he claims he was saying that would make his remarks be out of context, but looks like he has scored an own goal here. http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/t ol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article2 971410.ece | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 1075 Registered: 08-2006 |
Nicely said re: the own goal, Kev. The immigration "issue" has been a hot topic Stateside during this election season, and it's depressing that no one, not even the Democrats, call it what it is: convenient cover for the same old bigots. It's depressing, and monumentally short-sighted - that a nation composed almost entirely of immigrants, and has been helped immeasurably by them in our recent past, is so quick to demonize people who want the same chance at a better life. Moz, who's no doubt in LA to avoid the British taxes that sustain the lifestyle he now blames immigrants for diminishing, should shut his trap. | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 318 Registered: 04-2005 |
This story featured in the Guardian a couple of days ago http://music.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0 ,,2219235,00.html Personally apart from a few songs I've found his solo career pretty grim stuff. But all this kinda sullies the memories of the Smiths, who built a fanbase on alienated outsiders (OK me included) and challenged some prejudices (the macho side of rock for example). The man is clearly an idiot. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 863 Registered: 09-2006 |
So maybe "National Front Disco" was part-sympathetic?  And welcome back, Rob... | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 859 Registered: 10-2004 |
I gave up on Morrissey a long, long time ago. Like around 1990 or thereabouts. The man is an asshole, there's no way around it. I like the quote in that article about the judge stating that Morrissey was “devious, truculent and unreliable when his own interests were at stake." And like Andrew said, it *is* sad that Morrissey's ongoing efforts to prove he's an ass will inevitably taint the Smiths legacy a little. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 1453 Registered: 03-2005 |
I agree with your comment Rob. I had to reach a certain age to notice certain patterns. Because I live in California I've seen something like 4 different waves of anti-immigrant bashing complete with neanderthal legislative or voter initiative proposals. Currently, I've seen people actually blaming "illegal aliens" for the credit crisis! It happens every bloody time: people just unleash their xenophobia and pile on instead of taking responsibility for their own situation. Reading Moz' alleged comments (thanks Andrew, after removing the mystery space that might be the first link to the Guardian I've ever had actually work!) I'm reminded of my last fling with xenophobia when I was in college. That was the mid-to-late 1970s. Ultimately, I wised up and realized that there's an initial visceral discomfort when you hear and see the unfamiliar if you've grown up in a very limited environment--which I did. Immigrants make a culture dynamic. The changes they bring yield something new and stronger than any of the component parts. It's interesting that he lives in Rome now. I haven't been, but my chief complaint about northern Italy when I was there last year was its seeming cultural insularity. I felt MUCH more at ease when I got out of the car in Strasbourg near the end of that trip; the people were so much more colorful even if the food didn't quite compete. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 860 Registered: 10-2004 |
The wave of anti-immigration noise we've been getting in the US for the past few years was generated mainly to shift attention away from the harsh realities of Iraq, and Bush's general ineptitude and unraveling of US law. The timing was just obscenely blatant. And, quite sadly, it worked. Randy, where in northern Italy were things so culturally homogeneous? I certainly found that in smaller towns like Lucca, but then saw the complete opposite in larger cities like Rome. Florence was somewhere in-between. I also think of Portland, Oregon in this regard. It's been a few years since I've been there, but for a hip, increasingly "with-it" town, I found it overwhelmingly caucasian. And I'm reminded of my own hometown, Castro Valley (a mere 30 minute drive south of uber-progressive Berkeley). Castro Valley was known for its share of rednecks and 4X4 driving, confederate flag waving cowboys. I distinctly remember when plans to route BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit - a Bay-wide metro system) through the town were met with an outcry from citizens who were afraid of the "riff-raff" BART would bring in from places like Oakland. Never mind that BART would allow them the convenience of hopping on a fairly quick train ride straight to San Francisco. A sizable segment of Castro Valley wanted to remain as insular as possible. Luckily, BART won. | ||
| joe Member Username: Dogmansuede Post Number: 350 Registered: 07-2006 |
god this idiot infuriates me...possibly only because i've spent so many years listening to his music, particularly his solo stuff to which i was always prepared to extend the benefit of the doubt (bengali in platforms, asian rut, nf disco)....he's clearly a raving bigot who has no concept of either celebrating diversity or simply shutting his dirty mouth. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 928 Registered: 01-2005 |
>I felt MUCH more at ease when I got out of the car in Strasbourg near the end of that trip; the people were so much more colorful even if the food didn't quite compete. Randy, Hah! That's in Alsace which is where my ascestors immagrated from to the US after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71. The food may not be up to snuff, but the German style white wines are the best. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 1454 Registered: 03-2005 |
Jeff, aside from Florence I didn't hit any big cities so maybe that's all the problem was. I was in Lucca, Siena, Pisa and Como. We were traveling by car so avoiding Bologna and Milano had obvious appeal. But even in Florence, I just got this vibe that was a bit suffocating. Wherever I was black people seemed to be exclusively relegated to untouchable status. It was obtrusive. Gay people were completely invisible too even though there is a HUGE gay club located on the outskirts of Lucca. It just didn't seem like the cosmopolitanism of the EU had made much of a dent, though that must be different in Rome and Milano. But the food was always fabulous, often in very unexpected situations. And somebody should start up the Autogrill here in the U.S.. They'd make a mint. Michael, the odd combination of French and German in Strasbourg was fascinating. I even discovered that REAL sauerkraut is edible! And yes the white wines were superb. But it's the populace that impressed me. They ran the gamut in terms of ethnic origin and there was often evidence of blending. Everyone was included. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 861 Registered: 10-2004 |
Randy, I found Bologna to be *very* cosmopolitan. It's a huge University town, which helps considerably, I think. Its kind of the cultural hot spot. Just the vast numbers of students from all over the world helps considerably. But yeah, smaller towns tend to be much more, Italian, I suppose. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 1961 Registered: 05-2005 |
He's just a sad old man. Yes he is legend, yes he was God, yes he is a one off, and now he can fu*k off. This all reminds me too much of Johnny lydon, except witout the racist undertones, Rotton makes me laff, however he effin bores the shote outta me with his constant moaning about the Queen and the Royal Family. He's been in the US that long that he;'d forgotten that no one gives a fu*k about the royals anymore, Johnny, we know, you sad prick! | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 1960 Registered: 05-2005 |
Two sides to every story... Had to submit this over two posts because of length restrictions. MORRISSEY CONDEMNS RACISM On Friday of last week I issued writs against the NME (New Musical Express) and its editor Conor McNicholas as I believe they have deliberately tried to characterise me as a racist in a recent interview I gave them in order to boost their dwindling circulation. I abhor racism and oppression or cruelty of any kind and will not let this pass without being absolutely clear and emphatic with regard to what my position is. Racism is beyond common sense and I believe it has no place in our society. To anyone who has shown or felt any interest in my music in recent times, you know my feelings on the subject and I am writing this to apologize unreservedly for granting an interview to the NME. I had no reason whatsoever to assume that they could be anything other than devious, truculent and unreliable. In the event, they have proven to be all three. The NME have, in the past, offered me their "Godlike Genius Award" and I had politely refused. With the Tim Jonze interview, the Award was offered once again, this time with the added request that I headline their forthcoming awards concert at the O2 Arena, and once again I declined it. This is nothing personal against the NME, although the distressing article would suggest the editor took it as such. My own view is that award ceremonies in pop music are dreadful to witness and are simply a way of the industry warning the artist "see how much you need us" - and, yes, the "new" NME is very much integrated into the industry, whereas, deep in the magazine's empirical history, the New Musical Express was a propelling force that answered to no one. It led the way by the quality of its writers - Paul Morley, Julie Burchill, Paul du Noyer, Charles Shaar Murray, Nick Kent, Ian Penman, Miles - who would write more words than the articles demanded, and whose views saved some of us, and who pulled us all away from the electrifying boredom of everything and anything that represented the industry. As a consequence the chanting believers of the NME could not bear to miss a single issue; the torrential fluency of its writers left almost no space between words, and the NME became a culture in itself, whereas Melody Maker or Sounds just didn't. Into the 90s, the NME's discernment and polish became faded nobility, and there it died - but better dead than worn away. The wit imitated by the 90s understudies of Morley and Burchill assumed nastiness to be greatness, and were thus rewarded. But nastiness isn't wit and no writers from the 90s NME survive. Even with sarcasm, irony and innuendo there is an art, of sorts. Now deep in the bosom of time, it is the greatness of the NME's history on which the "new" NME assumes its relevance. It is on the backs of writers such as Morley, Burchill, Kent and Shaar Murray that the "new" NME hitches its mule-cart, assuming equal relevance. But the stalled views of the "new" NME sag, and readers have been driven away by a magazine with no insides. The narrow cast of repeated subjects sets off the agony, a mesmerizing mess of very brief and dispassionate articles unable to make thought evolve; a marooned editor who holds the divine right to censor any views that clash with his own. The editorial treatment given to my present interview with the "new" NME is the latest variation on an old theme, but like a pre-dawn rampage, the effects of the interview have been meticulously considered with obvious intentions. It is true that the magazine is ailing badly in the market place, but Conor doesn't understand how the relentless stream of "cheers mate, got pissed last night, ha ha" interviews that clutter every single issue of the "new" NME are simply not interesting to those of us who have no trouble standing upright. Strangely enough, my own name is the only one featured in the "new" NME that links their present with the NME's distant past, therefore a Morrissey interview is an ideal opportunity with which to play the editorial naughtiness game. This, regrettably, is what has taken place with this most recent interview, which, it need hardly be said, bears no relation in print to the fleshly conversation that took place. I do not mean to be rude to Tim Jonze, but when I first caught sight of him I assumed that someone had brought their child along to the interview. The runny nose told the whole story. Conor had assured that Tim was their best writer. Talking behind his hands in an endless fidget, Tim accepted every answer I gave him with a schoolgirl giggle, and repeatedly asked me if I was shocked at how little he actually knew about music. I told him that, yes, I was shocked. It was difficult for me to believe that the best writer from the "new" NME had never heard of the song 'Drive-in Saturday'; I explained that it was by David Bowie, and Tim replied "Oh, I don't know anything about David Bowie." I wondered how it could be so - how the quality of music journalism in England could have fallen so low that the prime "new" NME writer knew nothing of David Bowie, an artist to whom most relevant British artists are indebted, and one who single-handedly changed British culture - musically and otherwise. Tim's line of questioning advanced with: "What about politics, then ... the state of the world?" - which, I was forced to assume, was a well-thought-out question. It was from here that the issue of immigration - but not racism - arose. Me: If you walk down Knightsbridge you'll be hard-pressed to hear anyone speaking English. Tim: I don't think that's true. You're beginning to sound like my parents. Me: Well, when did you last walk down Knightsbridge? Tim: Ummm....
Knightsbridge ....is that where Harrods is? So, Tim was prepared to attack and argue the point without even being clear about where Knightsbridge actually is! The "new" NME strikes again. Oh dear, I thought, not again. I chose to mention Knightsbridge because it had always struck me as one of the most stiffly British spots in London. I am sorry Tim, but you are not yet ready to interview anyone responsibly. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 1961 Registered: 05-2005 |
When my comments are printed in the "new" NME they are butchered, re-designed, re-ordered, chopped, snipped and split in order to make me seem racist and unreasonable. Tim had told me about his friend who did not like the 1988 song Bengali In Platforms because the friend had thought the song attacked him on a personal level. I explained to Tim that the song was not about his friend. In print, the "new" NME do not explain this, but attempt to multiply the horror of Tim's friend by attributing "these people" and "those people" quotes to me - terms I would never use, but are useful to the "new" NME in their Morrissey-is-racist campaign because these terms are only used by people who are cold and indifferent and Thatcherite. 

All of the people I spoke to Tim about in the interview who are heroes to me and who are Middle-Eastern or of other ethnic backgrounds were of no interest to either Tim or Conor. Clearly, Tim had been briefed and his agenda was to cook up a sensational story that would give life to the "new" NME as a must-read national if not global shock-horror story. Recalling how Tim asked me to sign some CD covers, I do not blame him entirely. If Conor can provoke bureaucratic outrage with this Morrissey interview, then he can whip up support for his righteous position as the morally-bound and armoured editor of his protected readership - even though, by re-modelling my interview into a multiple horror, Conor has accidentally exposed himself as deceitful, malicious, intolerant and Morrissey-ist - all the ist's and ism's that he claims to oppose. Uniquely deprived of wisdom, Conor would be repulsed by my vast collection of World Cinema films, by my adoration of James Baldwin, my love of Middle-Eastern tunings, Kazem al-Saher, Lior Ashkenazi, Maya Angelou, Toni Morrison, and he would be repulsed to recall a quote as printed in his magazine in or around August of this year wherein I said that my ambition was to play concerts in Iran. My heart sank as Tim Jonze let slip the tell-all editorial directive behind this interview: "It's Conor's view that Morrissey thinks black people are OK ...but he wouldn't want one living next door to him." It was then that I realized the full extent of the setup, and I felt like Bob Hoskins in the final frame of The Long Good Friday as he sits in the back of the wrong getaway car realizing the extent of the conspiratorial slime that now trapped him. During the interview Tim asked if I would support the "Love Music Hate Racism" campaign that the NME had just written about and my immediate response was a yes as I had shown my support previously by going to one of their first benefit gigs a few years ago and had met some of their organizers as well as having signed their statement. Following the interview I asked my manager to get in touch with the NME and to pledge my further support to the campaign as I wanted there to be no ambiguity on where I stood on the subject. This was done in a clear and direct email to Conor McNicholas on the 5th of November, which went ignored and last week we found out that it had never even been presented to anyone at the campaign as that would obviously not have suited what we now know to be the NME's agenda. I am pleased to say that we have now had direct dialogue with "Love Music Hate Racism" and all of our UK tour advertising in 2008 will carry their logo and we will also be providing space in the venues for them to voice and spread their important message, which I endorse. Who's to say what you should or shouldn't do? The IPC have appointed Conor as the editor of the "new" NME, and there he remains, ready to drag the IPC into expensive legal battles such as the one they now face with me due to Conor's personal need to misstate, misreport, misquote, misinterpret, falsify, and incite the bloodthirsty. Here is proof that the "new" NME will twist and pervert the views of any singer or musician who'd dare step into the interview ring. To such artists, I wish them well, but I would advise you to bring your lawyer along to the interview. My own place, now and forevermore, shall not be with the "new" NME - and how wrong my face even looks on its
 cover. Of this, I am eternally grateful. MORRISSEY. 3 December 2007. | ||
| Duncan Hurwood Member Username: Duncan_h Post Number: 90 Registered: 05-2005 |
I like his solo music, but I don't see why liking the music someone makes means you have to like everything the person says or does. I think it's easier (and better) to separate the two: listen to the msuic, and ignore the person. I think we once had a thread about politics in music on here that I always meant to get round to writing in, but never quite did. | ||
| Stuart Wilson Member Username: Stuart Post Number: 124 Registered: 10-2006 |
Thanks for that Kevin. I was pleased to see Moz's defence of the old NME, too, even though it was the old NME that originally started the racism debate - but the new NME, dear god, what a pathetic rag of a comic it is. The original debate did however depend on a measure of ambiguity in some Moz songs which deserved to be explained, even though charging him with racism always seemed absurd. The other famous comment I recall was "Reggae is vile", which always seemed a ridiculous comment for any intelligent music-loving person to make, but hardly constituted racism, any more than saying "Jazz-rock fusion" is vile. But I don't like the idea of "listen to the music - ignore the person" since surely an artist's ideas & beliefs will also permeate their lyrics and deserve to be considered and discussed. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 875 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'd have to agree with Duncan, and I'd say that there are times when one needs to separate the politics from the art with certain artists (so long as said artist isn't using his/her art to explicitly promote backwards or harmful political views). Take Ian Curtis, for example. Many of us here love Joy Division, but he was apparently a conservative who voted for Thatcher! And let's not forget some of the nazi imagery used in their very early days, like the Ideal For Living ep. Wilson was sharp enough to connect it to Situationism and free association of images, but I suspect the band themselves were far less astute and intellectual when it came to politics, at least at that time. And look at Johnny Ramone. The guy is like a punk rock Ted Nugent. Total knee-jerk, hard-line conservative. He even said "God Bless George W. Bush" when inducted into the Rock 'n Roll hall of fame! Luckily they had the infinitely more with-it Joey as the band's voice. The sad fact is that not every musician we obsess over is necessarily going to have the kind of radical, progressive views of Cathal Coughlan or bands like McCarthy and the Minutemen. Many are probably blissfully unconcerned, while others woefully (and strangely) conservative. This was always bizarre to me. I mean, how could someone reconcile conservative values with art forms that to me always seemed inherently progressive? But obviously the world isn't so black and white, and I've been shocked before at discovering conservative beliefs of certain artists and fans alike. As for Morrissey, I'm sure the NME did take his words out of context and sensationalize them. But I'm also sure Morrissey probably made some stupidly ambiguous statements that contributed to the overall mess too. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 1080 Registered: 08-2006 |
I gotta say, that's a pretty credible rebuttal. I feel kinda bad about my dis above. The "popular" press in the UK makes People magazine look like The New York Times and I, for one, am willing to give Moz the benefit of the doubt on this one. Also, I like how he worked in the bit about the reporter's runny nose. Fight fire with fire. | ||
| Duncan Hurwood Member Username: Duncan_h Post Number: 91 Registered: 05-2005 |
Morrissey undoubtedly wants it both ways. He wants to (as they say) 'flirt' with fairly right-wing culture, but at the same time not be perceived as someone too unwholsome. I suspect he loves the attention he's been getting this week. While I like his music, I've never quite understood the adulation he seems to receive at concerts: I've not been to one, and I'm not sure I'd want to. It's not going to stop me thinking that "Vauxhall and I" is a masterpiece, though. | ||
| Stuart Wilson Member Username: Stuart Post Number: 125 Registered: 10-2006 |
I think if the Moz solo work had been produced by an unknown band from Kirkaldy it would be perceived as stellar, but obviously almost everything becomes obscured by the deep dark shadow cast by the Smiths. Southpaw Grammar, for instance, which I seem to recall got heavily pissed on when it came out, seem a wonderful piece of work to me - best use of a riff stolen from Shostakovich, too. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 1978 Registered: 05-2005 |
Agreed Jeff, well put Duncan. Vauxhall is a complete and utter masterpiece, he will never touch that height of creativity again..Why people go to see him now is that lost last link with ve smiffs! when i saw him in 2003, packed to the rafters, just before he made it BIG again, the people around me were all 18 or 19, and all new every smiths cover and every moz song. it was quite amazing. Hwever, now on stage he looks like a lost uncle, with his big flat DA haircut! and his recent comments, will influence the kids, which is wrong, it needs to be stamped out. | ||
| Catherine Vaughan Member Username: Catherine Post Number: 373 Registered: 05-2005 |
In an ideal world, I'd like to agree with Duncan and Jeff, and be able to separate the music and the personality. In reality though, I'd have to side with Stuart. I'm sure pretty much everyone around these parts would acknowledge the fact that music was probably a sizeable influence on every aspect of our lives. Bearing that in mind, musicians have a duty of care in what they sing about - even if they ARE being ironic. Ask an average 14-year-old to define irony, and you'll figure out why musicians should avoid it!! Personally I never noticed anything overtly political or anti-anything from the Smiths' or Morrissey's music - and it didn't influence me in that way anyway. From Moz, I took the grey cardigan, the bad hair and the misery. I took my politics from Billy Bragg, Woody Guthrie and Tom Robinson.. I'm inclined just yet not to either defend or condemn him. I'll wait to hear more, from both sides. Interestingly, I heard on the radio that Tim Jonze wanted his name taken off the article. One side claiming that it was because of his dislike of the way it had been edited to make Moz look bad. The other side claiming that it was because he felt that Moz had said a lot worse, and the piece had been toned down!! I have a feeling this one's going to run and run!! Won't do NME's sales figures any harm. I still won't bother buying it though! | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 1458 Registered: 03-2005 |
Ian Curtis voted for Thatcher? That's wild. Not really what you associate with the edgy young artist is it? But, to be fair, when I think of the UK in the 1970s I think of British Leyland. That could make a person resort to desperate actions. "From Moz, I took the grey cardigan, the bad hair and the misery." Catherine's 21st century take on "Just Like a Woman!" | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 883 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yup, Ian voted Thatcher. Even Paul Weller, very early in his career, was a conservative, or so I've read. He very quickly switched to the opposite end of the spectrum and stayed there, but yeah... Remember that most famous musicians never went to college, and as such, weren't necessarily exposed to more intellectual and progressive perspectives that they likely never encountered in whatever grim environments they grew up in. But people like Ezra Pound and Flannery O'Connor also come to mind. I love O'Connor's work, but was alarmed to find she was a hard line catholic, and that her interpretations of much of her own work were vastly different from mine! Still, she was a tremendous writer. And of course we all know Pound was a hideous fascist, but those Cantos were so groundbreaking and radical. It's difficult to reconcile, but I think there are a lot of artists like this out there. | ||
| David Gagen Member Username: David_g Post Number: 121 Registered: 02-2007 |
Art and Politics - Has a song ever changed the world? I don't think so. Is that the job of Art? Art connects us with the surreal, the imaginative, the fantastical, the allegorical, the soul?, the poetic. This debate reminds me of Bertulicci's "The Dreamers". Personal self-absorbtion, love, poetry, arrousal of the senses INSIDE, while the political revolution goes on OUTSIDE. Quite an interesting balance. All the anti-war songs have already been written. Art needs to move us on another level. A bit rambling I know, but it's got me thinking! | ||
| frank bascombe Member Username: Frankb Post Number: 212 Registered: 01-2007 |
I find it difficult to dissociate art from politics,I can't. In defense of Paul Weller and Ian Curtis, the country was in a state back then and a change seemed necessary to alot of people, little did they know what Thatcherism would bring. James Rubin on Question Time last night did say that all political parties in this country would actaully be democrats if transferred to the US system.Interesting and probably true. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 1459 Registered: 03-2005 |
I have an idea! How about all the residents of the UK move over to the US en masse? There's lots of space, even if some of it's been a bit uglified. Depending on where you choose to settle, there's lots of sun but there're also plenty of freezing places for those of you from Scotland. Come over and dilute the religious flat-earth contingent here. Please! David I know what you are saying but what if all the art suddenly vanished? I think you'd discover incredible and horrifying changes in mass human behavior. I believe art does change the world, incrementally. The Bertolucci film sounds interesting; I've not seen it. | ||
| Catherine Vaughan Member Username: Catherine Post Number: 375 Registered: 05-2005 |
Has a song ever changed the world? Maybe not. But sure as anything there are songs which changed MY world. And I'd bet you David, that there are plenty which changed yours. The "job" of Art, in any format IS to change the world - even if it's only one person at a time. What is the point in art if it doesn't change the person who sees/hears/touches it? | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 1083 Registered: 08-2006 |
I think you're right, Catherine, mainly because I believe art allows you to see the world through someone else's eyes, which is always illuminating and enlightening. It doesn't matter whether it's "Pet Sounds" or Picasso's "Guernica," I think peering into someone else's view of the world, rendered as art, helps you recontextualize your own experience by understanding someone else's. Just as an example: I am NOT a religious person, and I don't understand people's connection to it. I could listen to evangelicals blather all day about Jesus Christ and come away more convinced than ever that they're under the sway of mush-minded superstition. Put me in front of "The Last Supper," though, or some Caravaggio religious scene, and I get a sense of the power of faith in a whole new and more meaningful way. It makes me feel a bit of what these people are feeling. I guess it reveals the beauty and significance behind something that often seems to be obscured by ugliness and pettiness. In a small way, that's definitely world-changing. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 887 Registered: 10-2004 |
All that said, I'm just glad that some of the musicians with backwards and misguided political views (Ian Curtis) kept their politics out of their music. (If they hadn't, I suppose JD would've amounted to something like Death in June). My point is that there are artists who convey profound, radical, heartfelt, and even life-altering sentiments through their work, but who generally manage to do so without letting their knee-jerk socio-political views taint it. There are also artists who may be with-it politically/socially, but who do terrible, unspeakable things to their fellow humans (Woody Allen, to name one). So, there are times when one simply *has* to separate the art from the artist, or else we'd be shunning A LOT of good art out there. Plus, I like Rob's example: history brings us a lot of tremendous art with overtly pro-religious/christian themes. What am I, an agnostic who totally loathes religion, to do? You've got to distance yourself from the message, the intent, and appreciate the art form. I mean, I have ZERO tolerance for Christianity (or any organized religion) but I've spent hours and hours obsessing over the architecture of European Gothic and Romanesque cathedrals. I'm HUGELY passionate about them from an artistic standpoint, and yet what went on in these structures, what they represented, and the blood money that often financed them, is completely reprehensible. What am I to do? Am I a hippocrate? Do I have a moral obligation to hate these stunning and beautifully ornate structures on principle? I could say the same about the work of the Italian Futurists, some of the most highly talented and innovative painters that EVER lived. But once again, politics that tended toward the reprehensible. I could go on and on.... Like I've said before, in a perfect world, our artists would all have the socio-political values of Billy Bragg. Sadly, the world isn't like that. With music, I can draw the line quite easily by excluding anyone who vocally espouses destructive ideologies. Lucky for me, overt racists and fascists always seem to make wretched music. With visual arts and architecture, the line is less easy to draw so clearly. | ||
| frank bascombe Member Username: Frankb Post Number: 213 Registered: 01-2007 |
Randy I'd like to live in San Francisco and have a second home up in Northern Montana (Whitefish to be precise) I don't think I'd miss England at all. Shall we bring our NHS with us-but better funded and with less administrators. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 1084 Registered: 08-2006 |
Frank, if you'd bring the NHS over here, I know a lot of folks who'd be glad set you up with a flat in SF. C'mon over. | ||
| David Gagen Member Username: David_g Post Number: 122 Registered: 02-2007 |
Another film which explores this "dichotomy" between Art and politics is the film "Mephisto" made in early 80"s?? It sets out the opposing argument to my earlier observation. Set in Nazi Germany it focusses on a playwright who "just wants to write and produce plays" while naively unaware of how the Nazis are using him for political purposes. He literally has sold himself to the Devil in order to get his Art made. Yes Catherine, many songs have transformed me, thankfully and hopefully will continue. It's just that the world looks just as remarkably disfunctional as it always has been. Reaction against often surpasses progress for. This headache and hangover from Xmas party is producing all this pessimism, I think. Oh and anothet thing, article in todays's paper, "Rudd To Model Govt On Blair"!!!! I think 'll read another novel! | ||
| David Gagen Member Username: David_g Post Number: 123 Registered: 02-2007 |
Randy, the film was one of my favourites of 2005. Well worth having a look at. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 1460 Registered: 03-2005 |
Doris Lessing on our topic: 2224068%2C00.html,http://books.guardian. co.uk/nobelprize/story/0,,2224068,00.htm l | ||
| Stuart Wilson Member Username: Stuart Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hey, I'd like to move to Boston in that case, somewhere near Susan Silverman maybe. And I've always wanted to try a Dunkin Doughnuts, too, and see Vermont in the autumn. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 1461 Registered: 03-2005 |
C'mon over Stuart! But Dunkin' Donuts? I never had one until I was on vacation in Berlin a couple years ago. I pitched it in the trash. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 1085 Registered: 08-2006 |
Randy's right, Stuart. Dunkin' Donuts is not worth a trip across the pond, much less a walk down the block. But there's a place in Boston - I can't remember the name, it's in a kind of gritty neighborhood - that makes a calzone that wouldn't make you regret the airfare. And Vermont is as lovely as advertised. | ||
| Stuart Wilson Member Username: Stuart Post Number: 129 Registered: 10-2006 |
Well, I'm terribly disillusioned. All those cinammon muffins and other sugary heart-congealing things I've read about in various thrillers always sounded deeply attractive. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 1462 Registered: 03-2005 |
Not a problem Stuart! I'm sure every decent-sized U.S. city has an excellent donut emporium or three. In Los Angeles it's Stan's Donuts in the Westwood district near UCLA. And even Winchell's can be a guilty pleasure if you are lucky enough show up right when something's coming out of the oven. Calzone. Mmmm. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 936 Registered: 01-2005 |
Tim Horton's is taking over the donut franchise market from Dunkin' Donuts in Michigan and spreading out in other states as well. Tim Horton's is a Canadian instituion named after the longtime NHL Toronto Maple Leafs defenseman Tim Horton. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 875 Registered: 09-2006 |
And then there's Krispy Kreme, which I understand are stunningly unhealthy but which still taste pretty darn heavenly. | ||
| Stuart Wilson Member Username: Stuart Post Number: 130 Registered: 10-2006 |
There you go, a fascinating thread about art and politics and I've reduced it to cake. Sorry about that. Got to find a Krispy Kreme now, though. | ||
| Duncan Hurwood Member Username: Duncan_h Post Number: 92 Registered: 05-2005 |
We could write a song called "The Politics of Doughnuts". | ||
| Catherine Vaughan Member Username: Catherine Post Number: 376 Registered: 05-2005 |
Well the thread IS called "Bigmouth Strikes Again", so it's kind of fitting!! | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 319 Registered: 04-2005 |
Randy, As usual with the Guardian links couldn't get the Doris Lessing one to work - when you say 'our topic' presumably she wasn't actually getting torn into Morrisey and his recent pathetic ramblings?! Lessing - now there's an real intellect and a true artist. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 1464 Registered: 03-2005 |
Andrew, there's one of those evil spaces lurking in the link. I think it will work if you remove it. I was referring to our discussion of the relevance of art--its ability to change something. I posted it on here because it cheered me up so much. David, I mentioned "The Dreamers" to a friend and it turned out he had it on DVD. So I watched it on my laptop on Sunday. As is so often the case with movies set in another place I felt like I was not understanding things. I was particularly intrigued by Isabelle and Theo's parents. We all take something different from films. I saw it as a snapshot of the frustrations inherent in the inchoate brilliance of youth. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 754 Registered: 08-2004 |
I don't think there's a great deal of malice in Morrissey's opinions. He has always courted controversy, it's just these days it's harder to make headlines. Remember the moors murders, dance music is shite debacles. What he actually said & his intentions are most likely frivolous compared to the fact that he caused a stir & drummed up some attention ahead of the tour in the new year. It's a shame the great one had to use the cliche's of taxi drivers/white van man/middle England bullshit. "What really lies, Beyond the constraints of my mind Could it be the sea, With fate mooning back at me No it's just more lock jawed pop stars Thicker than pig shit, Nothing to convey They're so scared to show intelligence It might smear their lovely career". | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 1880 Registered: 05-2005 |
Stuart, are you in the UK? There used to be a Dunkn' Donuts in Leicester Square across from Tower Records. I spent many a happy hour in there pouring over my new purchases. Great donuts. Winchells in LA does rock though. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 1881 Registered: 05-2005 |
What's Doris Lessing got to say about donuts anyway? She like 'em? | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 1088 Registered: 08-2006 |
Hats off to Randy for pulling the work inchoate out of the kit bag! Padraig, I'd point you to Ms. Lessing's classic treatise, "Glazed or Jelly-Filled: The Aesthete's Dilemma." | ||
| Wilson Davey Member Username: Wilson Post Number: 91 Registered: 05-2005 |
As Johnny Craddock famously once said at the end of one of the Fanny Craddock cookery programmes in the 1970's during which Fanny had been showing viewers how to make doughnuts..."Goodbye viewers and I hope YOUR doughnuts look like Fanny's !" I laught at this at least once every day... | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 881 Registered: 09-2006 |
I read that one, Rob...nearly put me off the things forever. Overintellectualizing, laying a false either/or situation on a perfectly natural decision process... Wilson, with the host's name being what it was I'm shocked that that sort of thing didn't happen more often. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 1884 Registered: 05-2005 |
Now is that really true Wilson? No matter, LOL anyway. | ||
| Mark Leydon Member Username: Mark_leydon Post Number: 152 Registered: 05-2005 |
Pádraig - I'm also a former frequenter of the Dunkin'Donuts opposite Tower Records in Leicester Square. Many an hour spent in the there back in the late 80s/early 90s reading the NME I'd just purchased at Towers. How times change: Towers is gone; NME is crap (agree with Morrissey on that); and Dunkin'Donuts - what was I thinking! | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 941 Registered: 01-2005 |
Three songs with Leicester Square in the lyrics: 1. Walking To You - Everything But The Girl 2. I Something You - Robyn Hitchcock 3. Jeffrey Goes To Leicester Square - Jethro Tull | ||
| Catherine Vaughan Member Username: Catherine Post Number: 386 Registered: 05-2005 |
Another: It's a long way to Tipperary... | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 2000 Registered: 05-2005 |
Wilson, a bit like "the bowler's Holding the batsman's Willy!!" |