| Author | Message | ||
     spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3185 Registered: 05-2005 |
jfk, elvis and diana, don;t mean nothin compared to this ( i guess) jeezus christ, the man has bowed out.rip | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 2875 Registered: 05-2005 |
It's so bizarre: I was just reading about him in an interview with Thomas Dolby in Word magazine. Then I turned on NewsRadio and the first story says he's been taken to hospital, followed seconds late by "unconfirmed reports" of his death. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 241 Registered: 10-2008 |
hmm, i'm on dodgy ground here so it is probably better to say nothing other than god rest his troubled soul. anyway spence, reports vary as to whether he has actually died or not. sky say he has, bbc say he hasnt | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3186 Registered: 05-2005 |
i am in total shock at the moment | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1539 Registered: 09-2006 |
I'd been half-expecting it for a long time...it rarely felt like this particular story would have a happy or even mundane ending. RIP if that is indeed the case. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1540 Registered: 09-2006 |
So far all the US sources I'm seeing are saying he's in a coma. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1644 Registered: 10-2004 |
MSNBC is now reporting that he's dead. | ||
| Mark Leydon Member Username: Mark_leydon Post Number: 237 Registered: 05-2005 |
This is really sad. In spite of all the years of weirdness you cannot deny his brilliance. They were playing 'I Want You Back' on the radio on the way into work this morning. What a superb pop song that is - and what an amazing performance from an 11 year old kid. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3187 Registered: 05-2005 |
the guy was another one of those 'one offs' wasn't he? there's no denying. humble beginnings, natural talent, unreal voice, superb dancer, he got da funk, good timing, though the immense talent went awol. i hope to god the kiddy fiddling allegations were untrue, though i doubt it. nothing was simple in jackson;s later years eh? A TROUBLED SOUL. A fuckingx thrilling legend passes on. RIP Michael x | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 242 Registered: 10-2008 |
Sorry he's dead, but gotta disagree Spence. I'm not the man to comment on his peak period during the 80s cos I tried to avoid his music as much as I could, but from a distance I reckon the way he lived his life these last 10-15 years has put a massive blight on his legacy. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1541 Registered: 09-2006 |
I might've thought so at one time, but even though he was near the tippy-top (or maybe at THE top) of the list of celebs who went haywire plenty of others on that list remain revered. Elvis didn't go even half as crazy but he did his share, and he remains an almost godlike figure. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1542 Registered: 09-2006 |
I do think I'll be avoiding every last one of the 8 trillions internet pundit who'll be weighing in with their two cents right about now... | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3189 Registered: 05-2005 |
kev, that's exactly why i said his immense talent went awol mate! bigger than elvis!? Shit yeah! | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1544 Registered: 09-2006 |
"Off the Wall" goes into the changer tonight, shuffling alternately with "Experimental Jet Set" I think.. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3191 Registered: 05-2005 |
 Allen what the feck is experimental jet set?? | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3193 Registered: 05-2005 |
MJ's passing is like 911 to be honest. Pre 911 almost doesn;t exist in one's memory. I almost don't recognise anything pre Jackson's death, apart from my bootiful twins of course. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1545 Registered: 09-2006 |
Sonic Youth album from '94, full title "Experimental Jet Set, Trash and No Star"...I'm in the midst of listening to every last one of their albums, and loving it. This'll make a good, interesting break, though. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1546 Registered: 09-2006 |
"Interesting" sounds a little clinical, but it's not meant to be. Way back when the weirdnesses started escalating it did affect my enjoyment of his music for a time, but I was able to make my way past it. Just curious to see what thoughts and feelings might come up now. Over and out... | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3194 Registered: 05-2005 |
ahh! ta allen! i respect you my man, and also on the immense postings, you are a true gb blogger! | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1547 Registered: 09-2006 |
Well thank you sir, and the sentiments are definitely returned in kind. I've got another 10 years or so to go until I catch up with your post count, though...I'm a comparative slowpoke. | ||
| XY765 Member Username: Judge Post Number: 561 Registered: 01-2006 |
I always confuse Experimental Jet Set, Trash and No Star and NYC Ghosts and Flowers which is on my shelf gathering dust, I've heard it's a turkey, shoulkd really give it a spin. RIP Jackson but for me the main aspect of his legacy will be the child abuse cases. Any man having 12 year old kids over to stay the night and giving them 'Jesus Juice' is suspect. Very fu(king suspect. Not to mentiuon all the out of court settlements. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1645 Registered: 10-2004 |
I guess for me, the tragically bizarre trajectory of Jackson's life is sadder than the news of his death. In some ways, you could say he "died" the moment he started chiseling away at his nose. It's been a downward spiral ever since. Sill, there's no denying the impact Thriller had on me as an 8 year old kid at the time it came out. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2023 Registered: 03-2005 |
I admire Kevin's restraint. Back in the '80s I used to say Michael Jackson was the ultimate Reagan-era pop star. I stand by that. He was totally fake. Musically, he was a puppet. His music during his big solo era was the product of Quincy Jones, just as it had been the product of the Motown manipulators when he was a child. His appearance was totally fake--all smoke and mirrors. His singing was the best an unremarkable voice with the very best vocal schooling could offer. He could dance. He was a very hard worker. But that's it. He had no interesting ideas. He was not brilliant. | ||
| Alfredo L Soto Member Username: Alfred_soto Post Number: 19 Registered: 05-2005 |
So now you're admitting you're wrong, right? | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 245 Registered: 10-2008 |
"So now you're admitting you're wrong, right?" Not from where I'm standing. (Its not very clear but I'm assuming the reclusive Alfredo's having a pop at Randy) | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1646 Registered: 10-2004 |
Randy, I think all of that probably goes without saying, at least for most of us here. He was the accessible face (at least before he hideously disfigured himself) of a well-oiled hit-making machine. But that Quincy Jones, *he* was a genius! | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 2879 Registered: 05-2005 |
Hey Randy and Kevin, if you wanna be starting something... You gotta be starting something... | ||
| Alfredo L Soto Member Username: Alfred_soto Post Number: 20 Registered: 05-2005 |
The only thing Thatcherite is Randy's line of argument, with all due respect. I can't believe in a board dedicated to the music of the Go-Betweens -- who adored the Monkees -- that such conservative notions about authorship still exist. It's fairly obvious from the evidence of "She's Out of My Life," "Rock With You," and "Billie Jean" that Jackson was one helluva of a singer, with those patented hiccups and inhalations and remarkable breath control. I know no other songwriter who could have come up with "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough" or "Smooth Criminal" -- it's as if he's writing to the rhythm of his feet. These are among the most joyous songs in pop, up there with "Cattle and Cane" and "Man O'Sand to Girl O'Sea" (the latter with its oblique allusion to the Jacksons' "I Want You Back"). As for the insistence that Quincy Jones was the genius, I'll quote John Lennon on George Martin: play me some Quincy Jones music; go on, I dare you. | ||
| Alfredo L Soto Member Username: Alfred_soto Post Number: 21 Registered: 05-2005 |
In a day surrounded by bathos and sanctimony, I'm all for intelligent contrarian takes on Jackson's legacy; but, please, we'll need something better than faded, rockist notions of artistic worth. None of the evidence suggests he was a "puppet" -- and so what if he was? I guess you don't much like The Supremes, Temptations, or Aretha Franklin (or The Monkees, for that matter). | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 246 Registered: 10-2008 |
that'll be those same "patented hiccups and inhalations and remarkable breath control" that made me want to smash the radio with a hammer then alfredo?. never been a great lover of joyous songs to be honest, im a miserable bugger! just watched newsnight review there on bbc2 which is normally all highbrow arty farty and discusses theatre and film mostly, and paul morley who is one of the last great english music journalists was waxing lyrical about Jacko. then again the beeb cant be seen to be negative or disrespectful about these situations, i cant believe he really rated him as highly as he appeared to, he certainly didnt when he was actually making these records in the 80s. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 247 Registered: 10-2008 |
... oh and dont get me started on the Beatles ;-) | ||
| Alfredo L Soto Member Username: Alfred_soto Post Number: 22 Registered: 05-2005 |
Didn't listen to much radio in the eighties, eh? | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1647 Registered: 10-2004 |
Um, I don't think Michael Jackson actually composed the music, Alfredo. Your comparison to Lennon/Martin is apples and oranges. Lennon, was arguably, first and foremost, a songwriter - ie, someone who composed or wrote music. Jackson, by contrast, is much better defined as an entertainer. He may have written the lyrics and vocal melodies, but Quincy Jones and whoever else was involved likely contributed much more to the actual composition of the songs than Jackson himself. That's just the way a lot of these mega-selling pop artists' albums are made (Madonna/Nile Rodgers - Like a Virgin; Bannanarama/Stock, Aitken, Waterman - True Confessions, etc...). In short, Michael Jackson was definitely no Prince. But that shouldn't detract from the music, should it? I mean, if it gets your foot tapping, who the hell cares who actually wrote it? So you want to hear some Quincy Jones music? Go put on Off the Wall and Thriller and enjoy! You might like the guy he's got singing for him! As for me, I generally don't like to embrace or shun music based on issues that have little to do with the songs themselves. Some people will refuse to listen to music that's not crafted with utmost sincerity by the people who are playing/singing it. I think that's a really narrow-minded way to approach music, because there's been a lot of brilliantly written vapid bubblegum out there over the past several decades, and the only thing that really matters to me is how the song or melody affects me. So, whether it's Billie Jean or Cattle and Cane, at the end of the day I don't care. A good song is a good song... That doesn't mean I like just any top 40 crap, of course. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 248 Registered: 10-2008 |
At the end of the day people like what they like. To paraphrase, if we all liked Sonic Youth/Jonas Brothers the world would be a boring place - or something like that. Doesnt mean to say we cant be vocal about what we like or dislike. Bubblegum can be joyous, and vice versa I suppose, and bubblegum if we include The Ramones for example is great. If joyous is "We are the world" then count me out. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 249 Registered: 10-2008 |
Never been a great radio listener Alfredo, certainly not while growing up in the 70/80s anyway. mainly because the airwaves were saturated with joyous music. thankfully there's more choice now, it seems incredible to think that there are now radio stations devoted to playing the music that was once deemed unacceptable by the conservative BBC. | ||
| David Gagen Member Username: David_g Post Number: 248 Registered: 02-2007 |
Didnt much go for MJ but whenever Billie Jean played at any bar I was in, I felt like I was 18 again. | ||
| David Gagen Member Username: David_g Post Number: 249 Registered: 02-2007 |
Also remember Elvis sang a lot of shite and thouight he was an FBI gunslinger! | ||
| joe Member Username: Dogmansuede Post Number: 625 Registered: 07-2006 |
good work jeff! i think you mean "wow!", though. true confessions was essentially a swain and jolley affair (venus and more than physical aside) that didn't actually sell as many copies as their ramshackle first record. that being said, your argument still holds up. i'm truly ambivalent to MJ. i thought i might buy thriller yesterday, then i looked at the tracklist for the thousandth time and thought "no, still don't want it" and came home and listened to tlc instead. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2025 Registered: 03-2005 |
The comparison between George Martin and Quincy Jones is inapt. Quincy Jones had a long recorded history as a jazz artist before he took up record production. And he kept making records. Here's a link to his currently available output on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url =search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=q uincy+jones&x=18&y=22 I knew I was breaking a rule by voicing my negative opinion about Jackson on here and that's why I didn't do so earlier. Plus I love Spence and never want to cross him up. But I really do have no use for Michael Jackson's music. Let's try it another way . . . . . Would you rather listen to Dylan or MJ? Aretha Franklin or MJ? Magazine or MJ? Beatles or MJ? (Now there's a stumper for Kevin!) Prince or MJ? Go Betweens or MJ? Pre-"Headquarters" Monkees or MJ? post-Don Kirschner Monkees or MJ? Roxy Music or MJ? Bowie or MJ? Triffids or MJ? Terrence Trent-Darby or MJ? Gladys Knight or MJ? Diana Ross or MJ? Johnny Cash or MJ? Otis Redding or MJ? I realize that for many on here the answers will be different but for me, maybe MJ beats out post-Supremes Diana Ross. | ||
| joe Member Username: Dogmansuede Post Number: 626 Registered: 07-2006 |
tee hee....i love stoned love, nathan jones. don't ever change randy! the rules dun' mean shit. | ||
| Charles Coy Member Username: Coy Post Number: 137 Registered: 10-2006 |
Randy..really like your diplomacy...flatting with friends in the 80's if one of my 'Girl hair' affairs fell out, my housemate would put on "She's Out Of My Life'..it often brought a smile to the fire place with a scotch and bud at some point. I remember hearing 'Dont Stop till you get Enough' when arriving home a lot, at end, diving for a Lloyd Cole or BH to help over come the glam. To me the whole episode is sad, no doubting the talent, maybe not for me, but way back, used to sing'pretty little raven in the very first row'in the shower, Thriller still stacks up. Hope dignity, respect and well being awaits the children as they grow. FFMajors, well she was one of my early angels, like the way RO'Neal drifted back at the end. Their early days were like Taylor & Burton in the 50'60's in the late 60's and 70's I recall. Still the music heavens recruit a worthy member, the show will go on. | ||
| Geoff Holmes Member Username: Geoff Post Number: 512 Registered: 05-2005 |
He was a real weird dude was poor old Michael. I loved those early Jackson 5 singles, secretly(coz it was not cool) liked some of the "Off the Wall" singles, but the stuff after that was, to me, overblown and more concerned with style than substance. That he seemed to morph into a white women was most bizzare and alienating - I liked him better black. As someone said earlier, he was an entertainer, not a songwriter. Basically I don't like "entertainers" unless they do something genuine with their celebrity. Now talking about Beatles....(stop dry retching skully!) I bet Macca has rung Yoko re Northern Songs. Betcha! Betcha! Betcha! | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 250 Registered: 10-2008 |
Randy, I know how you feel regarding the diplomacy thing with MJ's death. There is so much more I want to say but feel I cant because it would be seen by some as being in poor taste. I get the feeling I've put more than enough noses out of joint in the last year or so anyway :-) Interestingly this is not the case on other forums I visit where its open season on the guy. The way I see it I have never liked the guy's music, and just because he's dead you're not allowed to diss his music anymore - thats crap! Regarding his importance as an artist, and how people on here judge his musical output, I think it may come down to age. I'm younger than him but not much so I grew up with him so to speak, when I was in my early teens I preferred T Rex, Bowie, Iggy and The Velvets. Meanwhile Michael was seranading Rockin Robins or Ben etc and I hated it with a passion. He then went into superstar mode in the 80s where I guess the MJ lovers on this board who are younger than the likes of Randy and I first came across him, and therefore perhaps have always had an affection for his music. Maybe I'm miles wide of the mark, but thats my take on it. Randy, I would rather listen to MJ than The Beatles, thats how much I detest them!! Randy, I could add many more to your list of "who would you rather listen to" but maybe the "heavyweight" artists you put him up against is not a fair way to judge him? Music categories can tend to get blurred, but isnt MJ catagorised as Pop and therefore "lightweight" for want of a better description at this time on a Saturday morning. If so its a no brainer, at least for me anyway? | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 2880 Registered: 05-2005 |
Randy, I'd rather listen to MJ than Magazine or Diana Ross. The answer is the others rather than MJ in all the other cases. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 2881 Registered: 05-2005 |
Now I'm going to get shot by both sides... | ||
| Alfredo L Soto Member Username: Alfred_soto Post Number: 23 Registered: 05-2005 |
The songwriting and production credits for most of his songs say he wrote and produced them. The HOME DEMOS included on "Thriller" and "Off The Wall" -- on which he's singing with his brothers playing the skeletal music, or he's programmed himself -- plainly show he created those songs. They don't sound like Lionel Richie, Luther Vandross, Stock-Aitken-Waterman, Madonna, Gang of Four, or Magazine. The times have nothing to do with it -- why is someone recording in the eighties less likely to have written his songs? Your argument makes no sense. By your logic, Richard Preston likely wrote "Cut It Out" instead of McLennan and Forster because, I don't know, it has synthesizers and is programmed. What's with the silly dichotomies? I have CD-R's and tapes with Go-Betweens, Roxy Music, and Jackson back to back. It's all great pop. I'll repeat what I said a few posts back: on a board dedicated to one of the great pop bands of the last 30 years, the snooty, conservative attitude towards pop music is truly shocking. All the great bands wanted hits: the Beatles, Stones, Roxy, Bowie. It's Americans who are supposed to be conflicted about them. As Neil Tennant of the Pet Shop Boys once said, we Brits LOVE to fight over who's going to be the Xmas Number One. Holding on to worn, absurd notions of a phantom purity that doesn't involve other people is such a terribly constricting way of thinking about music. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 251 Registered: 10-2008 |
On reflection Alfredo, you are right. Ive just wasted 30 plus years listening to music that pales into significance compared to the great Jacko and other pop groups you mention- get a grip!! This is an argument nobody can win, but are you seriously having us believe that you yourself have no opinion on what you think is good and bad, cos it looks like to me you are denying the rest of us the right to do that. I think Jacko was a freak, his music is crap, and frankly, given what he's got up to for the last decade or more as a role model to younger people he's on a par with Charles Manson - minus the murders natch!! Cut It Out - now there's one abomination of a song. Maybe Preston didnt write it but I'll wager good money he was heavily involved in the shaping of the song and that the demo beats seven shades of shit out of the polished turd it became. What is it with you constantly referring to conversatism and alluding to Thatcher, are you trying to tell us something? :-) I'm puzzled as to why you keep banging on about what we should be allowed to post here because its a Go-Betweens forum, and anyway this is the off topic section where surely anything goes? Personally speaking I'm probably the least fanatical Go-Betweens fan who posts here regularly, my dislike of 16LL for example has made me persona non gratis at times, so why you should be shocked that people who post on this board have no interest in MJ and pop music (as opposed to rock) is truly shocking to me. I look in here because some of the posters are interesting and charming people , and some are obviously badly in need of some musical education that I can impart to them free of charge!! Regarding snootiness, the first 3 paragraphs in your last post are outstanding examples of this - well done sir. | ||
| Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 28 Registered: 04-2009 |
Every single CD store in my region of the U.S. was completely emptied of MJ CDs by closing time Thursday night, and through all of Friday, including, presumably, used copies of Invincible & Blood On The Dance Floor. I thought finding a copy of Dangerous in no specific condition would be a fairly possible thing, but walked away empty handed, always past a customer or two having a somewhat ignorant conversation with the clerks about ordering "Thriller" or something like that, which I thought everybody owned already, or could at least sing to themselves. Reports suggest this was not merely a regionwide phenomenon. I am told such store-emptying occurred in the aftermaths of Elvis' & Lennon's death but was -11 and -7 at the time. I understand the why but not necessarily the scope of it, though I've not verified if anything has changed as of today. Still, I wonder if the same kind of thing occurred with Soft Machine records when Hopper died recently, or GBs stuff when Grant passed (not as if the stores ever had much of them anyway). And Season 1 copies of the Charlie's Angels DVDs were still a conspicuously unchallenging find... | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 253 Registered: 10-2008 |
Actually, if todays newspaper allegations of daily drug cocktails are to be believed, the beloved entertainer is a rock n rebel on a par with Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Keith Moon, Sid Vicious and Kurt Cobain. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 254 Registered: 10-2008 |
Actually, if todays newspaper allegations of daily drug cocktails are to be believed, the beloved entertainer is a rock n rebel on a par with Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Keith Moon, Sid Vicious and Kurt Cobain. | ||
| Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 29 Registered: 04-2009 |
The writing on this thread is marvellous. Hey, Jim Morrison - THERE's somebody Jackson's genius most definitely eclipsed. | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 449 Registered: 04-2005 |
Certainly with you on old Jimbo, Victor. Rock's poet supreme indeed. I can't say that MJ's death means much to me; I liked a few singles, but find comparisons with Elvis (in terms of influence) to be a bit of a joke. In terms of mass-produced pop, it comes down to a gut feeling surely. For me a large part of the Motown output is simply wonderful, in a way that Stock, Aitken and Waterman was definitely not. As for Alfredo comment about the Monkees; I happen to really like my Monkees greatest hits record (yellow 'Music For Pleasure' label pop-pickers) but I think we have been down this road before, in terms of disassociation of artist and output. Its certainly not because I like the GBs that I have to follow what else is lumped into that category (the "literary pop" one). Or like what the musicians themselves like. I used to argue against 'manufactured' pop; my sister was a big Abba fan in the 70s and we had some fierce disputes ! But you grow up and realise that there is no point in taking such dogmatic stances. (Except against Jim Morrison obviously) In the end I imagine that MJ spent a large part of his life being a pretty unhappy individual and that is a sad thing. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 2886 Registered: 05-2005 |
Victor, if it's any consolation, neither of the two record stores closest to me had any Seeds albums left in stock yesterday, following Sky Saxon's death. (Not that they had any in stock, aitken or waterman before his death either, obviously). | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 2887 Registered: 05-2005 |
It's good to have a bit of fire and brimstone back on this board btw. Makes me yearn for the glorious 'Battle of Oceans Apart' days of yore (but with more sanity and sanctity). | ||
| Geoff Holmes Member Username: Geoff Post Number: 514 Registered: 05-2005 |
Tisk, Tisk, Tisk. MJ over the Fabs. Now that IS sad. | ||
| joe Member Username: Dogmansuede Post Number: 627 Registered: 07-2006 |
i spent all last night with my older sisters watching his videos. i still don't get it, more confused still is my ma. she can't work out why the king of pop spends so much time in his circa 20 minute videos neither singing nor dancing. liberian girl anyone? he seemed to fancy himself as somewhat of a ladies man. i doubt any of the starlets he attempted to catapault to fame (or anyone else) ever felt the same way. there was always something comically asexual about him, which potentially explains all the "exuberance" that is often accredited to his back catalogue. the screamy sexy violence looks hella camp (and dreadfully tiresome!) now. i'll leave it to the rest of you to tell me how it came off at the time. on the other hand, i'm left with with i want you back (a kid's voice should not sound like it knows that sort of anguish), off the wall, human nature and keep it in the closet. michael, your final score is a six. | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 451 Registered: 04-2005 |
Spot on Joe > i'm left with with i want you back (a kid's voice should not sound like it knows that sort of anguish) | ||
| Alfredo L Soto Member Username: Alfred_soto Post Number: 24 Registered: 05-2005 |
Yeah, that is pretty good, Joe. Another example: "She's Out of My Life." What a performance! I'm sorry for coming down so hard on you, Padraig. Like I said once already, I look forward to reading contrarian takes on Jackson's music; what I objected to were received notions about songwriting and artistry. | ||
| joe Member Username: Dogmansuede Post Number: 629 Registered: 07-2006 |
yep....stark, affecting stuff. off the wall's probably the only MJ record i really enjoy from start to end - and that there's the money shot. daring blue and green shirt/jumper combo in the promo too. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1648 Registered: 10-2004 |
Well, like I wrote above, I ultimately don't care *who* wrote the music, whether it was a slick production team or the person singing the music. And, no, I've never heard the home demos of Off the Wall or Thriller, so who knows, maybe Michael Jackson *did* actually sit down with a piano or acoustic guitar and carefully compose each chord progression and melody, a la musical prodigy Prince? I still suspect Mr. Jones had a lot to do with how those songs came out on record, but at the end of the day, as I keep saying, *that* doesn't bother me. And I'll agree with Kev too on Cut it Out - the producer *did* have a lot to do with how it ultimately came out (which is profoundly different from a very organic, superior live version that has done the rounds), as the label exerted some degree of pressure on the band during that time to cough up a radio-ready hit. Also, let's get our facts straight: while 80% of Tallulah was produced by Richard Preston, Beggars brought in the more big-name Craig Leon to produce both Cut it Out and Right Here, which explains why both songs sound so slick and accessible in contrast to the rest of the album. Furthermore, I used two 80s-era examples above because that was more or less the era that MJ's most popular songs defined. However, production and songwriting teams and aggressive hit-craving labels have aided (or flat out written entirely) songs for artists for eons. I mean, hello! Brill Building, Holland-Dozier-Holland, etc... And it's alive and well today with folks like Timbaland. But, you can't deny that the 80s had a wealth of manufactured pop that dominated the top 40, and in some ways I believe that the whole concept of manufactured pop was ratcheted up a notch or two in the 80s *because* of the unprecedented success of Madonna, Michael Jackson, Banannarama, et al. It was a winning formula, and record companies milked it like there was no tomorrow. Furthermore, producers rarely get songwriting credits despite how much input they actually may have on the composition of a song (which in some cases can be profound). The role of a record producer is very broadly defined, and means something different for every producer, and even for every album. It can be virtually hands-off and unobtrusive, or it can be absolutely integral to the album or single. It is not uncommon at all for a big-name producer to take even the most skeletal sketch of a demo and build it into something totally different, or even to pull a hit out of virtual thin air. But will said producer receive songwriting credit? Not necessarily, as everything the producer has done can technically fall under the job of "production." | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 255 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeff, I give you Martin Hannett and Unknown Pleasures to back up your theory. Who knows what this album would have sounded like without Hannetts profound influence. Probably very good, but not the masterpiece that he crafted. | ||
| David Gagen Member Username: David_g Post Number: 250 Registered: 02-2007 |
I believe Off The Wall is prob as good as any album of its genre. I cant for the life of me work out why Grant (or anyone else on this board) likes the Monkees either Alfredo. I also try to differentiate the MJ songs from the videos which is hard to do. They make me wanna dance and jump around if Im sufficiently pissed.. Thats all. In all the intellectual discussion of music sometimes thats overlooked. Jackson could have chosen a different path for himself. He didnt need to choose this King of Pop crap. He could have chosen to be an Artist and make music cos thats what Artists do. But he chose a different path. He didnt grow as an artist. He was too preoccupied with image and plastic surgery and appearanc and things of a superficial nature. Having said that the songs (whoever wrote/produced/whatever) on Off The Wall and Thriller are of a particular quality that it seems they will transcend the strange phenomenom of MJ. Isnt it great to have an argument around here! | ||
| joe Member Username: Dogmansuede Post Number: 630 Registered: 07-2006 |
bang on the money david. personally, i find the videos are indulgent, misogynistic and (especially) boring. whilst the first two records themselves are kinda irresistable. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2028 Registered: 03-2005 |
Jeez, I thought this thread would be idle by now. Long ago, in the evil and vicious days of the early 60s, producers would sometimes slap their names as co-writers on work written by their recording artists as a way to cop some royalty money. The recording artists had no clout and considered themselves lucky to even get to the studio, so little corrupt bits like that were just a part of the scene. Re the Monkees, I happen to like them but that's because of the records they made after they wrested control from Don Kirschner. While they became very hit and miss, the music that they wrote, or selected, and either arranged or at least chose the arranger tends to be more engaging, less generic. I pretty much sign on with what Joe said. Padraig: Michael Jackson over Magazine? For shame! | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 2888 Registered: 05-2005 |
Alfredo, I didn't notice you had come down hard on me! David, well said. But I don't agree with you about the Monkees. Some of their stuff is great pop. Randy, I knew the Magazine line would get me shot by both sides! | ||
| joe Member Username: Dogmansuede Post Number: 631 Registered: 07-2006 |
not to mention diana ross padraig. you've left me traumatised! (ok, not really) | ||
| Mark Leydon Member Username: Mark_leydon Post Number: 238 Registered: 05-2005 |
I was at my local pub last night and someone put Billie Jean on the video jukebox. Spontaneously about 30 people of various ages stood up and started dancing joyously. I've never seen that on a Sunday night! Despite all the years of Jacko weirdness and the current sh*tstorm of good/bad publicity nothing can detract from the greatness of that song. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 260 Registered: 10-2008 |
there aint half some silly buggers out there http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Michael-Jackson-Th riller-LP-1982_W0QQitemZ160343259636QQcm dZViewItemQQptZUK_Records?hash=item25553 3f9f4&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65% 3A3 its gonna be worth 99p this time next year when the fuss has died down i wouldnt give you 14p for this tripe never mind £142 | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3196 Registered: 05-2005 |
I rode past a secondhand record store (yup can;t believe there are any left) and it had Jacko's Bad and a Farah Fawcett LP's pushed right to the front of the window, both faded as fu*k, POA (price on application) Jeez. Shall I reserve them for ya kev!? | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1516 Registered: 01-2005 |
I bought Thriller on vinyl and played it a couple of times in early 1983 and into 1984. Prince's 1999 certainly saw 10 times plus the turntable action on my Dual 701 that Thriller ever saw. I perfered The Time as well back then over MJ. On the QJ front, I'll agree with those previously stated views of his contributions and greatness as a producer even before his work with MJ. Although if you compare Tom Dowd to QJ, I would have to say that Tom was the better engineer and producer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Dowd | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 2899 Registered: 05-2005 |
Kevin, it's easy to understand why Thriller is going for £142. It must be so rare. I mean it barely sold at the time... | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3201 Registered: 05-2005 |
Oi, Alfredo! Fu*k off! | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3202 Registered: 05-2005 |
Thriller £142. 142 punds of freakin horse shit more like! What cun* wants to rip some poor soul off for some vinyl, sad shits man, feck em! i hope they rot in ebay hell! | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 266 Registered: 10-2008 |
calm down mr angry ;-) to be fair spence, the seller put this up for sale on 19 june when jacko was still alive and pumping himself full of all kinds of shit, after that its up to the silly beggars that bid for it (y'know i still cant believe this sad sicko who was a junkie, an alleged child molester and all round circus freak is being held up as some kind of role model - i'm just glad my kids are too young to fully comprehend what this weirdo got up to these last 15 years or so - anyway i digress). ps, whats alfredo done to annoy you , i quite enjoyed his contributions to be honest, even if i did disagree with him 100% | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3205 Registered: 05-2005 |
Just winding meself up for nuthin mr kev! Alfredo, et al, was trying to provoke a response, I am test marketing personalities. You working this weekend Kev? | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 270 Registered: 10-2008 |
you'll have a hard job test marketing the many faces that is LK Spence. yep working nights, still 2 to go :-( | ||
| joe Member Username: Dogmansuede Post Number: 647 Registered: 07-2006 |
fredo are you ok / fredo are you ok / are you ok fredo | ||
| Alfredo L Soto Member Username: Alfred_soto Post Number: 25 Registered: 05-2005 |
Sorry I was away – I was hit by a smooth criminal. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3223 Registered: 05-2005 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkPD69HXW 6U | ||
| joe Member Username: Dogmansuede Post Number: 655 Registered: 07-2006 |
totally hanging out for the thriller-esque resurrection. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 937 Registered: 08-2004 |
I wish Mollie Sugden had as much coverage. Who's looking after her "pussy" now. That's enough of this train wreck of a thread. There's way too much 'Mourn Porn' in the media! | ||
| joe Member Username: Dogmansuede Post Number: 656 Registered: 07-2006 |
i really could just stare brooke shields down all day & night. | ||
| spence Member Username: Spence Post Number: 3230 Registered: 05-2005 |
she is beatiful joe, but i am f*cked if I can remember what she is famous for, sums up celebrity culture? | ||
| joe Member Username: Dogmansuede Post Number: 658 Registered: 07-2006 |
me neither. her hair? something in the 80s? taking rather superb digs at tom cruise? check check check | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1663 Registered: 10-2004 |
"Baby Be Mine" is a stellar pop song, in case anyone had any doubt. |