| Author | Message | ||
     cosmo vitelli Member Username: Cosmo Post Number: 705 Registered: 05-2005 |
just watched a Joni Mitchell documentary and realised that 1. She is one of my favourite artists 2. She was a f***ing genius for about 10 years 3. Bowie wasn't a genius for any longer than that 4. She should have been in my top 10 artists list (maybe she was I forgot it) | ||
| cosmo vitelli Member Username: Cosmo Post Number: 706 Registered: 05-2005 |
5. Maybe I drank too much wine before and during the documentary | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 2208 Registered: 10-2008 |
6. Never rated her to be honest, in fact I think she's crap :-) To be fair I've only really heard the "radio songs", but that is enough for me to guage that I won't like her albums in the slightest. And yes I know this will probably make me the anti-christ! (again) | ||
| Stuart Wilson Member Username: Stuart Post Number: 798 Registered: 10-2006 |
If we replace "she's crap" with something like "her particular brand of sweeping melody, highly literate lyrics, octave leaping voice and willingness to explore beyond the boundaries of the traditional singer-songwriter doesn't really appeal to me" then it might be closer to the mark. We all have our blindspots, but the Beatles were not crap, and Ms Mitchell is not crap, simply because one doesn't like them. Court and Spark, just for one, is a magnificent piece of work. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 2209 Registered: 10-2008 |
The clue is in "I THINK she is crap" - I never said she was crap, other people like her - fair enough. I also THINK the Beatles are crap, it would be ridiculous for me to be under the impression that other people dont think they are great. Plenty of people dont like Radiohead for example, I don't get all upset about it - people can like what they like. Its hard work here at times! | ||
| Stuart Wilson Member Username: Stuart Post Number: 799 Registered: 10-2006 |
It's perhaps just the use of the word "crap" that bothers me a bit. If you're looking at, say, a Rembrandt and the guy next to you says, "I think it's crap", then the immediate conclusion you jump to is not that he's expressing a valid aesthetic opinion but that he's an ignorant twat. No, no, god forbid, I know skulld isn't an ig. tw. and that's why maybe a more measured use of words would be more interesting. Calling figures who have demonstrably enriched and innovated our culture crap doesn't seem to get us very far, that's all. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 2210 Registered: 10-2008 |
Its just a message board Stuart, not an Arts review show. Sorry if I offended you. At times like this it feels like walking on eggshells on this board, I regualarly feel that I am holding back on saying what I really want to say (about albums and artists, not other people!), and I suspect I am not alone. Some other messageboards are like war zones. One that really surprised me was the David Bowie messageboard, you would think it would be a bit like here, all nicey nicey - but no, there were people savaging others, moderators doing the savaging as well apparently. Got extremely personal as well so I hear. Anyway as I said once before, opinions on here always seem to be ok as long as we dont offend our own favourites - just witness the Mumford and Sons and Joanna Newsome ritual killing threads for proof of that. And there have been others. But in most peoples book that was obviously ha ha, very funny, they're pish who cares blah blah. I feel the same about Joni Mitchell, in fact most most of that generation of singer/songwriters just bore me rigid. I don't feel my life is emptier for this. You feel different about her, I won't lose any sleep. There are millions like you so who am I to argue. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 2211 Registered: 10-2008 |
To be honest I wish I hadnt bothered replying to James's drunken post. It was meant to be slightly humorous (and obviously failed) I also think it wouldn't have been a bombshell revelation to others that I didn't rate her either, so again I wish I hadn't bothered. | ||
| Stuart Wilson Member Username: Stuart Post Number: 800 Registered: 10-2006 |
I wasn't offended, I was just trying to put forward a point of view. This being the only message board I know, I have no idea what the coordinates are for what you're meant to say or not say. I don't see why people should "hold back on what they really want to say" about albums etc., unless it descends to the level of mere abuse. Ah well. As one of my colleagues used to say to me, rather too often, "you really have to lighten up Stu." | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 2212 Registered: 10-2008 |
I don't see why we should hold back on what we really want to say either, but my own experiences, and watching what has happened between others, has shown that if you don't want to upset some people you have to reign it in. Some people in the past have taken a bad critique of a favourite artist as some kind of slur against themselves, bizarre really, but thats the way it seems sometimes. Some people have never been seen again! | ||
| cosmo vitelli Member Username: Cosmo Post Number: 707 Registered: 05-2005 |
Being inadvertently responsible for the above exchange due to too much vino and passion for music I feel as if I should contribute to the 'argument' in some way. I could see Kev's response was of humourous intent but felt that Stuart's response was sharp and correct. Clearly there are many different personalities and opinions on this board and I have discovered many new bands, artists, films and books through reading it. Many , if not all, of us are passionate about music and as Kev states this is a message board however the dialogue is generally good and well informed, simply wading in to state that a band are crap or that we don't like them and no more than that does not real add anything to my life or to the board in my opinion. Like Stuart I don't post on any other boards and if all I read on here was people telling each other that bands that one person liked another person thought was crap then I wouldn't bother anymore . Kev is definitely a wind-up merchant though and his personality tends to dominate the board but I actually have no problem with his strong opinions and he is a good guy. And by the way Mumford and Sons ARE crap | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 2213 Registered: 10-2008 |
Sometimes I will submit lengthy posts, sometimes a one liner will suffice - eg if I can't really be bothered with the subject under discussion. I stated the divine Miss M was "crap" because I have no interest in her and didn't want to waste a lot of energy in stating why. After the lengthy posts today on this subject I recognise there is a certain amount of irony in saying that. I still stand by what I said earlier, if I had said (as others have also said in the past) that band X is "crap" or "turgid", or "rubbish" or whatever nobody, including Stuart,would have batted an eyelid, it happens all the time. It's only because of who I aimed the remark at that caused the complaint. Not sure I understand the wind up merchant accusation James. It depends on what you mean. If you mean I deliberately set out to upset people, or try to noise them up, I plead not guilty. If I am joking about something I usually put a smiley, in fact I do this quite a bit. I am sure we all agree that things get "lost in translation" when it is written rather than said face to face, which is why a smiley or a lol can help to clarify things. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 3171 Registered: 03-2005 |
Yes, the message board medium sadly results in the loss of a lot of humor. We've all been posting on here for a long time and we all have to know by now that nobody means any harm. By this point it ought to be easy to just laugh and think "there's Kevin again!" And he really DID put the smiley after the word "crap." I'd say that the particular variety of humor that was overlooked here was self-parody. Back here in Los Angeles I am surrounded by Joni Mitchell fans, meaning all of my closest friends worship her. This means I've heard a lot of her music over the years without ever asking to. I respect the obvious intellect behind her work, at least until the later part of her career when I really do think she was crawling up her own . . . . I'd rather hear her songs done by others. "Both Sides Now" is a timeless classic. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 2214 Registered: 10-2008 |
Just to put my side of things, I can assure everyone that every so often I also think "there's X again". I'm just too polite to say it! | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 1050 Registered: 04-2006 |
hey kev, don't offend me: i love joana newsom! :-) and, oh my god, joni mitchell was in my favourite artists list for a long, long time. maybe she still is, but some other artists out-competed her a bit. we all know kevin and what's the meaning behind when he starts to rumble. i don't think nobody felt offended. but i like the phrase stuart wrote: ''her particular brand of sweeping melody, highly literate lyrics, octave leaping voice and willingness to explore beyond the boundaries of the traditional singer-songwriter''. this sounds beautiful and made my day. | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 1051 Registered: 04-2006 |
i have to correct myself: i don't love joanna newsom, i just love her music... :-) | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 2215 Registered: 10-2008 |
And as if to prove the point of my last post ;-) | ||
| andreas Member Username: Andreas Post Number: 1054 Registered: 04-2006 |
impertinence! :-) | ||
| Geoff Holmes Member Username: Geoff Post Number: 868 Registered: 05-2005 |
I like SOME Joni but when she got into all the jazzy stuff she really lost me. Stuart, I really have tried to listen to "Court and Spark" and HATE it! SO bland and smooth - so 70's West Coast Americana without the desert and with too much coke. Now "Blue" is another matter ALL together!!!! I introduced a friend to "Blue" and the next minute he's a Joni freak and has EVERTHING by her! | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 5497 Registered: 05-2005 |
Joanna Newsome is unadulterated crap (no "I think". It's a fact). Mumford & Sons are upper middle class pentacostal twats. (Or so I've gathered from our Brighton correspondent) Joni Mitchell is not crap. I loved her music when I was a teenager. Sadly, that was a long time ago now. I found Kevin's comment funny. I also liked Stuart's description of JM's music and talent. I post on no other board. All of life is here.  | ||
| Stuart Wilson Member Username: Stuart Post Number: 801 Registered: 10-2006 |
Ironically, I'm not even Joni's biggest fan, I just believed her work to be worth defending - I'd do the same for, say, Bowie, though I'm far more lukewarm personally towards his music. I haven't listened to Court and Spark recently: in my memory, it caught her talent perfectly on the cusp as she moved from introspective acoustic troubadour into beautifully crafted rock/pop and before her interest in jazz led her into murkier waters; I shall dig it out today from the boxed set of her albums - which still makes me think of that moment when Gene Hackman plummets headfirst into the golden cave in Eureka - and see how it stands up. Ah, smileys... sometimes they remind me of that cheery slap on the arm and "Only kidding, Stu!" when I've just been introduced as "this tightfisted miserable Scot..." | ||
| Stuart Wilson Member Username: Stuart Post Number: 803 Registered: 10-2006 |
...actually, "not enough desert, too much coke" would be quite a cool lyric. | ||
| peter ward Member Username: Peter_ward Post Number: 210 Registered: 06-2005 |
Own a few of Joni's albums but the only one I've played consistently over the years is "Blue" ..."The Last Time I saw Richard" is a just beautiful. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 2511 Registered: 01-2005 |
Blue still holds up for me forty plus years later. I've got For The Roses on vinyl, but I proabably haven't listened to it in 20 years. Joni lost me on Court and Spark. |