| Author | Message | ||
     steve connell |
I just found out that Helter Skelter's shop closed at the end of March. Apparently their lease was up, and they couldn't afford the much higher new rent. The book publishing part of HS will continue, and at least some people have told me they plan to continue mailorder for a while, though I haven't been able to confirm this. It's a bitter blow for all authors and publishers of books about music -- there was nothing else like Helter Skelter anywhere. I wish there were a way to keep it going in a new location -- I'd almost think about moving back to the UK to help do that! Has anyone else heard anything more? What it means for anyone looking for the Go-Betweens book is that the most reliable source is gone. My advice would be to get it via Amazon or via the distributor, Turnaround (orders@turnaround-uk.com). I'd like to thank the Helter Skelter folks for running such a great operation for so long, and wish them good luck with their future projects Steve | ||
| Cassiel |
Oh no. I ordered the David McComb book from them a few weeks back. No wonder they haven't sent it. That's a real shame; it was a great shop. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi |
What David McComb book? How long has that been out? | ||
| steve connell |
"The Tragedy of Dave McComb and the Triffids: Save What You Can" is the title of the book. Bleddyn Butcher (best known for his photographs, including many fine Go-Betweens pics) has been working on it for a long time, and Helter Skelter is supposed to be publishing it. But did it actually come out yet? | ||
| steve connell |
Sorry, the title should read: "Save What You Can: The Tragedy of Dave McComb and the Triffids". Amazon has it the wrong way round on its UK site. But no sign of any copies of the book. I think publication was originally scheduled for some time in 2003. Would love to read it, so hope it happens soon | ||
| david nichols |
Last I heard, and this is not that long ago, this work was nowhere near completion so if it's actually out that's incredible. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi |
That'd be a good read. I actually wrote an email to Graham Lee recently suggesting he should write a book on the Triffids and I never got a reply. If you're a David McComb fan and don't know this already, Lee runs a great tribute site at www.wminc.com.au. I always found it interesting in the Go-Bs book that there was a lot of jealousy coming from the Go-Bs towards the Triffids success. I wonder if this existed in the Triffids camp (if not on a commercial basis, perhaps an artistic one). Robert's reaction to learning of Stephen Street producing them seems rather extreme, even if he acknowledges in the new edition that there was always someone on the other side of the door to watch him scream (what exactly does that mean anyway - he was screaming towards Grant?) By the way, if anyone can help me out, I've been looking for a copy of McComb's "Love of Will" for years now, with no luck. | ||
| david nichols |
Regarding Triffids and GoBs rivalry, I think it was a bit of a furphy, RF saying he always knew someone was watching him scream is I think a way of saying that he would overdramatise the situation for effect. The GoBs and the Triffids were in the same boat, probably had much of the same audience, although certainly I think if the GoBs ever felt they paved the way somewhat for the Triffids in the UK that would be a justified attitude. Although in a way The Birthday Party paved the way for both groups, their very different sound and style notwithstanding. | ||
| carl |
I spoke to some one in Helter Skelter a few months ago and they said the David McComb book would be published this summer. Bring on the sunshine! | ||
| steve connell |
I can't agree with David's assessment here. Perhaps it seemed different to Australians living in London during those years, but I -- like most Brits, I suspect -- never really thought about the Birthday Party or the Go-Betweens being Australian bands. I saw both bands play a number of times, and the audiences were just typical London audiences. Whereas the Triffids always seemed to attract a large contingent of Australian expats. When they'd play at the Town & Country in Kentish Town, for example, the bar would have Australian beers on draft just for the evening. But in any case I don't think any of the bands really paved the way for their historical successors because of a shared nationality. I can't imagine anyone went to see the Go-Betweens because they liked the Birthday Party! That would be like going to see Einsturzende Neubauten because you liked Nena's "99 Luftballons." The Birthday Party had a substantial following because they put on a spectacle, even though their records were laughably bad (much like the Cramps, or the Butthole Surfers a few years later). They only got to be good after they came back from a stay in Berlin (they played a fantastic show with Neubauten and Malaria at that time, I remember) and made those 2 great EPs before they broke up. The Go-Betweens appealed to a rather different (though not entirely mutually exclusive) audience. Very Rough Trade postpunk angular (and you can't beat that, I reckon). And the Triffids attracted a different section of the public again -- the developing audience for neo-country ballads that also gave fleeting fame to the likes of Cindy Lee Berryhill. But also, far more than BP or the Go-Bs, they appealed to Australians in exile, for whatever reasons. Is it that they really sounded more Australian? My memories may be a little hazy at this point, 20 years later, but that's how it seemed to me, at least. I'd like to hear what others remember. | ||
| Cassiel |
The Helter Skelter site said it was available and I have the transaction ID to prove it (though not the book...yet). From the Australian end, I can see how the BP blazed a trail. I can't imagine that too many Oz bands had simply upped sticks and gone to Europe like Cave et al did. Once they had, and if you believe Clinton Walker in his book, and it's not always wise to believe Clinton Walker, the act spurred other bands like the Go-Betweens and The Triffids and The Moodists and The laughing Clowns to follow suit. But from over here, it was a different. Not even the laziest hack lumped them into an Oz rock bundle. The Go-Betweens are a very distinctive band, as were The Triffids. The latter were more suggestive of Australia -- wide open roads, big empty skies, the claustrophobia of huge barren landscapes and oppressive heat, themes which have never really interested Robert and Grant. I think McComb and Grant share some attributes -- literate, a liking for the epic, sweeping song, a fondness for opiates by the sound of it -- but that's about it. McComb was a criminally underrated lyricist: his words were much darker than either Grant or Roberts, even if they were cloaked in a pretty tune. In my mind, to contradict myself, but hey, what the hell, The Triffids and the go-betweens are inextricably linked. Both are bands I love, that never received the acclaim and sales their talents deserved, and each produced one sublime album (Liberty Belle, Born Sandy Devotional) and a couple of corking other ones. McComb's death was dreadful: like Grant and Robert did, he might have got the Triffids back together and earned some money at last and we would have got to see him singing Save What You Can, Hell of a Summer, Beautiful Waste, Seabirds, once again, as well as some great new stuff if what he was doing with the Red Ponies and Black Eyed Susans was anything to go by. | ||
| hsf |
I didn't like the Go-betweens because just they were Australian, but it did distinguish them from other bands at that time. I was fascinated by them by the degree to which they were out of kilter with their contemporaries in the U.K....I mean it was very pronounced. They just didn't fit and part of the reason they didn't imho was that their reference points were different to European and certainly British ones - I mean Grant grew up on a 'ranch' in a state the size of 'Texas' and went to rodeo's, not exactly the up bringing of your average Brit. They were a bit like your doddery relations from the country who are a bit peculiar, loaded, wear antique jewelery and whose waredrobe is minging, and I liked them all the more for that! | ||
| Randy Adams |
I think I have a bit of an Australian fetish although I swear that I come by it by accident. My collection has a bit of Birthday Party and I had a lot of Nick Cave before I became aware of the GoBs (which I did--typically late--in about 1990). So it IS possible for the same person to like Cave and the GoBs. I've tried two different Triffids albums but haven't really gotten their charm. I do enjoy the bubblegum psychedelia of the Church and lap up nearly everything from Ed Kuepper, who I view as a peer of the GoBs. But isn't everybody forgetting The Saints as the folks who might have paved the way for everyone else? Certaintly Birthday Party cannot be credited for paving the way for Laughing Clowns--Kuepper had his path to the UK. From my California native perspective, both RF and GM seem very connected to the city/rural juxtaposition of their country of origin. I suspect that part of their magnetic effect on me comes from that. I grew up in an agricultural region of the state but have spent my adulthood in LA. I find their evolution from super talented (comparatively) small town boys to worldly sophisticates who never quite lose the small town roots very easy to relate to. I suppose it's just a matter of scale. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker |
Count me in as another person (and another native Californian, incidentally) who doesn't get the Triffid's "charm". I've only heard two of their albums, "Born Sandy Devotional," and an earlier one, and both failed to really do anything for me. It was so long ago that I heard these records that I don't even remember what the hell they sounded like. I just remember being bored by them and finding them rather unmelodic. But we all have a different frame of reference for what we see as "melodic." But then so many Go-Betweens fans seem to swear by the Triffids that I'm always wondering what the hell it is I'm missing. Maybe I tried the wrong records? I don't know... Maybe it's the fact that I've never set foot in Australia? But here in the US we have plenty of our own wide open spaces which people say the Triffid's music evokes, so... I see their albums in the dollar bin fairly often out here, which at least shows they've had much less impact on the states than the Go-Betweens. I have to take issue with Steve Connell's comment about B-day Party records being "laughably bad." Sure, I was most enthusiastic about the Birthday Party way back in high school when I was a spastic, hyper teenager. But to call them laughably bad, when they were one of the most seminal and influential art-damaged noisey post-punk bands of the era is just plain silly! | ||
| david nichols |
I dispute Steve's assessment although I think he and I are coming at the subject from a different angle. Australians until the 80s were very used to Brits being dismissive and contemptuous of them. Of course this situation still exists to a degree today. The Saints suffered from it drastically and dramatically - one of the best (if not the best, though I also have a soft spot for Pere Ubu and The Buzzcocks) mid-70s punk groups who were virtually ignored in the UK at least partly because they were Australian. The Birthday Party blazed a trail to some degree because they were a post-punk band that the British press and public couldn't ignore. Which is not to say the GoBs rode in on their coattails, because they were a very different band with largely a different audience. But the BP did make a big impact on the way British people who liked new music saw Australian rock music, and possibly made British audiences more receptive. Also the BP were friends to the GoBs and helped them out. Obviously I wasn't there and Steve was, but to say that no-one thought of the BP and the GoBs as Australian - well, if that is true it kind of proves my point, because prior to that time being Australian was an inherent mark of inferiority for a lot of Brits and it would be a high compliment to overlook the unfortunate Australianness (although I have to say anyone who liked Before Hollywood and didn't realise the band that made it was Australian wasn't really paying attention!). Steve and I have hedged around this debate before and I reckon he can't really 'see' it, partly because it means so much less now than it used to, also because he's not the kind of person to discriminate against people for cultural, racial, or any other stupid reason, but it WAS an issue at one point. I'm sure that anyone could come up with Australians who made it big in the UK before the Birthday Party came along, but I think the list of Australians who made it big and were at the same time 'credible' (i.e. count Daevid Allen if you want, but don't count Rolf Harris or LRB) might not be so huge, especially in the music scene in the 70s/early 80s. | ||
| Randy Adams |
I stand corrected on the impact of the Saints. I thought that they made a bigger splash in the UK. In Fresno, California nobody of any value generated any local attention. I figured if I could get my hands on records by folks like the Saints and Radio Birdman, they must be making an impact somewhere. I'm guessing that I might be just a tad older than some of the folks on here--probably about RF and GM's age--so my listening time line is a little different. IMHO, the 70s was a horrible wasteland until the punk boom. I made it through the dreary first half of that decade by soaking up overlooked (in the US)60s records like anything from the Easybeats (that Australian thing again!), reggae and Captain Beefheart until he made that crappy album in 74. I've never thought of the BP's records as "laughably bad." I saw them as a punker's response to the great Captain Beefheart records. Everything was off the radar in the hinterlands of the U.S., so the fact that somebody comes from Australia would not be of any significance to us over here. Does anybody know, was "Karen" consciously inspired by Jonathan Richman's records? It certainly sounds like it. Perhaps I will find out in the Nichols book. I just got an e-mail that it has been shipped. | ||
| david nichols |
I may have been overdramatising the Saints' situation for effect. Certainly THEY felt they didn't get the appreciation they deserved, which maybe isn't the best gauge. They did make the top 40 - at number 40 I think (This Perfect Day). But Prehistoric Sounds was (and is) such a magnificent album, for it to more or less sink without a trace (cover art was prophetic come to think of it)... not that this would all have been down to their Australian background. But some of it was, plainly. All Australians get in England is a barrage of jokes about prawns on the barbie and one-eyed trouser snakes. I'm experienced. Of course Americans have a different attitude to Australia, postcolonials don't exactly stick together but we all know where we're 'coming from'. | ||
| John |
David, I was going to suggest that you had overstated the importance of the Saints being Australian in explaining their lack of success in England. I thought the problem was more that they didn't fit into the "rules" that had already formed about what was and was not "punk". That is, they didn't look the part (longish hair, no dog collars or safety pins) and didn't sound it either (a willingess to experiment with brass for instance). On the other hand, being Australian was undoubtedly part of the problem. | ||
| Padraig Collins |
Pete, I have Love Of Will. Send me an email, we can do a trade or something. | ||
| Cassiel |
I can't see what the problem would be in liking both Nick Cave and The Go-Betweens, Randy. I adore them both and have done for years. The BP were a great band, though time has not been too kind to them. I jhear them and shake my head a bit, but that's probably because i'm cracking on a bit and they seem a bit cartoonish now. Though i seemed to remember them sounding a bit cartoonish back them as well. As for The Triffids, Jeff, they are well worth another look. Get Australian Melodrama, a best of and a great primer, and see what you reckon. As for 'Australian fetish'; is there a website for that? For people who bought LOve Buzz by The Hummingbirds perhaps (great record). | ||
| Pete |
The Saints did make the top 40 here in the UK with 'This Perfect Day'. They even got to appear on Top of the Pops. Sex Pistols were on the same show doing 'Pretty Vacant' and The Saints blew them away. Mark E Smith is on record as saying how The Saints were the better band and was a big fan. I believe that The Fall were playing 'This Perfect Day' in their live set a few years back. I have to agree with David when he says that The Saints did suffer from the contemptuous attitude of the UK music press (and some of the public). While the UK press raved about the '(I'm) Stranded' single - and this was probably the major factor in the band coming to the UK - the band that arrived here the following year certainly didn't look the part. The addition of brass meant that they didn't sound the part either. There was a sort of 'country cousin' approach towards Australian bands well into the 80s, together with a lack of understanding of where they were coming from. I remember The Birthday Party being bemused by an NME writer asking them if there were any interesting Aboriginal bands playing in Melbourne. Of course, New Zealand bands weren't to escape this either. Straitjacket Fits recounted a journalist 'jokingly' mentioning kangaroos in an article. Still, as Shayne Carter added, at least they didn't mention sheep. I also have to agree with David that the band that made 'Before Hollywood' were clearly coming from a place that was very different to London, and a UK band could never have made this record. Whether this LP can be seen as typifying 'Australianness' is not for me to say. It is, however, still my favourite Go Betweens record. Finally, after The Saints, let's not forget the godlike genius of the Laughing Clowns. A band that must be due a re-appraisal soon. Ed Kuepper's finest moment? | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
The LCs have had a good run here of late. See the Send Me A Lullaby topic Lindy herself acknowledges Jeff Wegener as her major influence (Guru, really) on SMAL. I would not discount the possibilty of finding a wider acknowledgement from Robert. We have identified one or two songs on the SMAL demos (appearing on the Brisbane 1981 release, VQOTE) which appear to exhibit an extraordinary simularity with the LC style of song writting and structure. There are also a few occasions on SMAL when the LC influence appears to surface, at varying intensities. If you're an LC fan, then you're in good company around here. | ||
| pete |
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the previous LC chat, Mark. I only saw the LC once - supporting Go Betweens at Kings College in London May '83 - and they were truly awesome. Haven't heard the records for a while but I picked up a cheap secondhand 'Golden Days: When Giants Walked the Earth' CD recently. Highly recommended as an introduction to the band. I'd read elsewhere that Jeff Wegener was a major influence on Lindy. He's certainly one of the best drummers I've ever heard. | ||
| Cassiel |
It seems the Lord of Helter Skelter hosts is among us. I received an email today from very helpful HS chap who said 'Save What You Can' would not be available until next year, as some of the more clued up among you indicated. He said he'd spoken to Bleddyn Butcher and that the book would be well worth waiting for, though as he's publishing it, it's unlikely he'd say it was total crap. I, for one, can't wait. The subtitle 'The Tragedy of Dave McComb and The Triffids' indicates it might not simply be referring to his heart problems and subsequent death. Is it going to explore the, um, er, alleged stuff surrounding his last days? I know a lot of people close to him were and probably still are very upset. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi |
Alleged stuff? Sounds scandalous. | ||
| Cassiel |
I won't go into details here because it's probably not the right place. There is a website where a friend of Dave McComb has put up lots of stuff about his last days and the events surrounding his death, though i searched for it a few weeks back and couldn't find it. It's not scandalous; just sad and a great shame. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi |
Cassiel, it's not the Graham Lee/wminc one is it? | ||
| Cassiel |
Pete, if you are interested, this page hints at the furore. Read the messages. I have no idea how genuine they are. http://elvispelvis.com/davidmccomb.htm | ||
| Cassiel |
This was the link I was mentioning. It's now dead it seems. http://users.bigpond.com/redpony/investigation.htm | ||
| Pete Azzopardi |
Thanks Cassiel. Who was this ONE person I wonder and what did they do to him? | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
As far as I know he died of a hart attack. He was on his 3'rd hart when he died. The heroin rumour was never substantiated in any report, again AFAIK. | ||
| Cassiel |
The above mentioned site, now offline, had a copy of the coroners report and it said the cause of death was due to drug toxicity and nothing to do with his heart (though that can't have helped.) Though how authentic the site and its documents were, I don't know. It alleged that one person, a 'friend', though considered to be a bad influence by Dave's other friends and family, was staying with him when he died and there was some drug thing going on. | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
If there was a coroner's enquiry into McComb's death, it's the best kept secret on the internet. I can't find any credible reference to such an enquiry ever having taken place. | ||
| steve connell |
re: "laughably bad" Birthday Party records Jeff W. wrote: "I have to take issue with Steve Connell's comment about B-day Party records being "laughably bad." Sure, I was most enthusiastic about the Birthday Party way back in high school when I was a spastic, hyper teenager. But to call them laughably bad, when they were one of the most seminal and influential art-damaged noisey post-punk bands of the era is just plain silly!" Have you listened to "Prayers on Fire" recently? Now that's silly! Although it's not a patch on "And the Ass Saw the Angel" . . . | ||
| Anonymous |
PERTH vs BRISBANE TONUGHT LIVE IN LONDON 1985 | ||
| Padraig Collins |
I thought 'And the Ass Saw the Angel' was a great book. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi |
Ditto. I find Cave's old testament stylings far better suited to the page. Love it that when Grant read the first draft of the book he reportedly said "it need's pruning". Much like Cave's hair, actually. | ||
| Cassiel |
All I remember about The Ass, was that I read it as a callow, Cave loving student and it contained about 43 words on every page that had you reaching for the dictionary. What the hell does 'reboant' mean anyway? I found it disappointing to be honest. But then it's better than the one-act plays he wrote with Lydia Lunch. How off your tits to you have to be to write this: Woman: Fill me with oil and f*** me, grease monkey boy. Mechanic: Pissfl*ps! THE END Very strange. | ||
| lindymorrison |
Interestingly enough, because I never read the plays, must have been their dadaist/surrealists discovery period, but Lydia never drank or did any drugs. She just loved cakes and would have the most delicious afternoons teas with cream cakes, chocolate cakes, every variety of minute cup cakes and delicious tea in china teapots and delicate cups and saucers.. | ||
| david nichols |
I wish Lindy would write her memoirs. Apropos of nothing to do with any of the above really, I would like to let you all know I am going on RRR tomorrow to talk about the GoBetweens book with Neil Rogers. Those of you who don't live in Melbourne could theoretically listen via the streaming, see http://www.rrr.org.au/index2.htm It'll be after 9 sometime in the evening on Neil Rogers' show, like, around 24 hours after this posting. RRR is such a great radio station, those of you outside Melbourne who like listening to radio on the internet will probably be pleased to get acquainted with it. It's the station where I first heard the Go-Betweens (on one of those wimmen's music shows that they had in the 70s/80s - it was an interview with Lindy - they played I Need Two Heads, which had just been released). | ||
| Pete Azzopardi |
I'll be tuning in. So what songs will you play this time to promote the book, David? | ||
| Pete Azzopardi |
For anyone that didn't tune it, they played 'Obsession with you', 'People Know' and 'Apology accepted'. Interesting mix. | ||
| JohnD |
I ordered the Triffids book of the Amazon site a few weeks back and have been getting -your order will be delayed etc etc every few weeks for the last two months or so..but they where advertising it as being available with a 4 - 6 week waiting period but it looks like they have not got it in stock and are not likely to have it for the forseeable future etc | ||
| jerry |
Amazon is shit. I've only ordered about 6 things from them and 3 times there has been some problem or another. | ||
| steve connell |
In defence of Amazon, I'd say that I have *never* had a problem with Amazon.com (the US site) in 20 or more transactions. And I've only once had a problem with Amazon UK, when the books arrived soaked through, and on that occasion Amazon sent replacement copies free of charge, even though the soaking undoubtedly came when the books were in the possession of the postal service while in transit from the UK to the USA. What's more, Amazon has made it possible for small publishers to make their books accessible to a larger audience in a way that conventional distribution and retail mechanisms never permitted in earlier times. Without them, we and many other smaller publishers would not be in business, and the reprint of the Go-Betweens biography, for example, would never have happened. So without wishing to dismiss Jerry's complaints, I'd say that from my experience and knowledge they're not exactly typical. You can hardly blame Amazon for getting info wrong about publication dates, etc. -- they're only going on whatever info the publisher gave them in the first place! --Steve | ||
| fsh |
Steve, What kind of 'cut' does Amazon get from the sale of a book? I heard annecdotally it was considerably more than is taken by 'conventional' distributors. | ||
| Randy Adams |
I second Steve's comments. Amazon has made all sorts of things accessible that were not before. But they can't get everything. I've learned to use the different Amazon sites. There are things that I can get on Amazon.UK that I can't get on Amazon US. And the German version has yet another availability. I just got the GoBs' book from Amazon. | ||
| steve connell |
When buying direct from indendent presses, Amazon takes 55% discount from RRP/list price. This is the same discount that wholesalers take, but they have to give pass on most of that discount when they resell it to retailers, whereas Amazon.com is a retailer and therefore keeps the whole cut, less whatever discount they offer the punter. Sometimes that's 30%, which is good for us, but sometimes it's zip (e.g. with the Go-Betweens book from Amazon US), which is pretty annoying. On the other hand, Amazon is responsible for about a quarter of our total sales, so they're very important to us. As I said before, we wouldn't be in business without them Steve | ||
| jerry |
My biggest problem with Amazon and other online retailers is that they advertise the item as being in stock and once you've ordered something they are suddenly awaiting supply. I ordered the ltd ed. double of BYBO from UK Amazon as an import from the US for around £15 plus postage. About 6 weeks later I received the single CD on the US label for the same price, very annoying. As a result I sent it back and told them I would never use them again. | ||
| Anonymous |
Someone above referred to the disappearance of the old www.redpony.net site, regarding David McComb of the Triffids' last days. The site is still up, but here: http://www.geocities.com/lairoftheredpony/ (a domain-name squatter now holds the old domain  I believe the title of Bleddyn Butcher's biography has changed to 'Save What You Can: the day of the Triffids and the long night of David McComb" and the publishing date has been put back - yet again - to Feb 2005. | ||
| Cassiel |
Thanks anon. That was the site to which I was referring above and the 'controversy' surrounding David's death, his inquest and such. For those interested in the Triffids it makes sad and somewhat tawdry reading. Hope the book can clear it up. |