| Author | Message | ||
     nlgbbbblth |
this has probably been posted before but the re-release double CD of Spring Hill Fair - Bachelor Kisses sounds so much lower than the rest of the CD My 19 year old record sounds better than this Were later pressings ever sorted out | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker |
You're absolutely right. In fact, I can't remember if it was on this board or on the Tallulah list, but we had a discussion of this a few years back. Basically, for reasons that are totally beyond me, Bachelor Kisses is noticeably quieter than the rest of the album. When 5 Words kicks in, it's immediately and noticeably louder. This problem exists on every version of SPF, right back to the original vinyl pressing. I'd love to know why this was done. You'd think it was a mistake, but they've kept it up with every reissue, and it may even sound worse on later reissues. It wouldn't be hard at all to just boost Bachelor Kisses volume a bit during mastering so that it equals the levels of the rest of the record. Very strange, indeed. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi |
It's strange, but I never noticed this jump in volume until the 2002 reissue. I have the vinyl and the 1996 CD and I couldn't recall it having this problem (or intention). I also remember being confused about the ending of 'Draining the Pool' and the beginning of 'River of Money': for the longest time I was sure that the two crossfaded into one another, but this isn't the case on the vinyl or 2002 CD (can't be bothered to listen to the '96 CD to see if it was that that gave me the impression). Another anomaly between reissues I've mentioned once before in this chat room is that there is a slightly different mix for the song 'Bow Down' when you compare the vinly to the CD reissue. When I listen to the vinyl there seems to be a greater emphasis on the frilly guitar bits and the whole thing sounds less washed out in reverb. Go figure. | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
I can guarantee the problem isn't evident on the 1984 French release (Sire K 925 179-1) pressed in Germany. I've never heard any other pressing, so the recording level problem is a surprise to me. Jeff: How'd you go with that copy of H.R&R Vol 1? | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker |
I think the problem of quieter Bachelor Kisses followed by abrupt increase in volume of 5 Words isn't as drastic on the vinyl, but I swear, I can hear it on my 1984 Sire vinyl copy. It seems more noticeable on both the BB reissue and the Circus reissue. I mean, on those CD reissues it's jump-up-and-turn-the-volume-down noticeable. I'd love to know whether this, which could have been easily remedied during mastering, was deliberate or a mistake. Mark: yeah, History of R&R is pretty awesome. I'd say half of it is exceptional, while the other half is well, patchy. My favs are Theme from Mad Flies..., Sometimes, and a few songs on side two, the names of which escape me. Good stuff! | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
Only awesome! ..Nah, in all seriousness I'm glad you enjoyed it and it only gets better with age. (I'll still give ya 6 bucks, plus postage!  ). Re: The vinyl. I assume we are talking about the very same vinyl, but maybe we are not. I've monitored the recording levels via the digital UV meters running on the control panel of an M-Audio 2496 and connected through to the pre-amp. As you know, the M-Audio technology is Zero Gain. Both tracks average around -3db and peak at -0db. The illusion of a change in the recording level (on my recording, anyway) has been created by an 18 second fade-out at the end of Kisses and some rather energetic playing at the start of Words. Both tracks average the same SPL's in the main. Kisses was mastered separately and at different studios, so that may explain the variation on the CDs. Sorry if this seems overly argumentative, but it's just a fact, on my pressing anyway. | ||
| Nicky |
Oh sparky, thank God you're here! And you? overly argumentative? surely not... | ||
| Peter Azzopardi Member Username: Pete Post Number: 12 Registered: 09-2004 |
I'm in the middle of preparing a Go-Bs compilation CD for a friend and listening back to my track order I was annoyed by the drop in volume with Bachelor Kisses which is evident following on from, as well as after shouldering tracks, despite Isley's (do I dare mention his name?) sound assessment. I decided to "maximise" the volume in my Goldwave sound editing program and it now sounds as loud as the other tracks. Considering that Goldwave will only "maximise" or boost without flattening out pre-existing peaks and lows shows that it had a lot of room to boost and thus the mastering was either a mistake or intentional; it's not an aural deception however. I also tested "Emperor's Courtesan" which to me always sounded a bit quiet too and found this could not be boosted; it truly is quieter at the start when looking at the sound waves which, incidentally, show obvious, maximum extremes. Sorry to be a technical bore but I thought I'd been a bit quiet lately. | ||
| Cache Unregistered guest |
The volume difference on BK annoyed me so much, when I purchased the SHF reissue, that I stuck it into Cool Edit Pro, upped the volume on the track by, i think about, 30 per cent and burned it and the rest of the album to CDR, which I could then happily listen to without getting stressed out. I also recall digging out my old vinyl copy and noticing no volume difference. | ||
| David Fitzpatrick Member Username: Fitzer Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2004 |
In respect of different sound levels, I hadn't noticed it with 'Bachelor Kisses' though I have always thought it was the so with 'Head Full of Steam' on LBABDE - on the 12 track German version, the 1996 reissue and the recent expanded version release. | ||
| Peter Azzopardi Member Username: Pete Post Number: 13 Registered: 09-2004 |
I think the problem with "Head Full" is that the bass guitar is quieter in the mix than on any other song on LBATBDE. | ||
| Richard67 Member Username: Richard67 Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2004 |
I've just heard Gideon Coe, 6Music DJ, play 'Bachelor Kisses' then follow it up by claiming that this is allegedly the favourite Go-betweens song of....shock horror....(and I can barely bring myself to type this) Robbie Williams?!?!? The worrying thing is that he sounded quite sincere as he said it. Somebody tell me I dreamt this.....please! | ||
| Peter Azzopardi Member Username: Pete Post Number: 15 Registered: 09-2004 |
I'm not surprised by the Robbie Williams connection. I heard an interview with Grant on Melbourne's 3RRR sometime during the last couple of years in which he said Robert bought him Robbies "Feel" single for either a Xmas or birthday present because he thought Grant would love it. And he does. | ||
| Rob Unregistered guest |
I've been in England 2 years now after 38 years in Australia before that.. and I am still floored by the remarkable and broadranging power of the Go-Betweens name here. I doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Robbie would like the band, given the adoring press that that they have had here for so long (indeed during most of Robbie's lifespan). They are as much a feature of British music as, say, Tom Jones or Donny Osmond, both stars who first peaked in years past, but still command enormous respect. This is an odd reality for me, a man who has always enjoyed the cult nature of the Go-Betweens following in Australia. It's just not the same over here. People like the late John Peel and the national reach of BBC Radio 1 and the daily papers have a lot to do with this, I suspect. Just on radio issues, I have occasionally listened to 6Music. I find it a bit too pure indie for my liking - no metal, nothing with any kind of dance beat - but perhaps the ideal of a music station playing a bit of everything is unrealistic now outside the community radio sector. What do other people think? | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 18 Registered: 08-2004 |
Despite relative success in the U.K. I have yet to meet anyone who has heard of the Go-B's. Aside from at a Go-B's gig. Even people who claim to have a broad knowledge of music give a blank look when you mention them. As for that media whore Williams he is working with people within the industry who do have good knowledge of recent history, one of his cronies plays him a song, he says he likes it and it shouldn't really be news to anyone. He has already covered a World Party song, if he starts on any other of my favourites back catologue I'll go all Mark Chapman on him. | ||
| Cache Unregistered guest |
The high profile in the UK thing is very far fetched, and that Tom Jones/Donny Osmond comparison is just ridiculous. They may be popular with certain critics/media types, but there is no collective memory of the GBs, the way there is with Jones and Osmond. I'd say, at least, 99 per cent of the general public wouldn't have a clue who or what The Go-Betweens are/were. | ||
| Padraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Jerry, it is World Party's former guitarist who writes the vast majority of Williams' music (and plays in Williams' band). I'm sure it was he who played a Go-Betweens song to Williams also. A guy's got to make a living I suppose. Hey, I'd sell my soul for that kind of publishing money too. | ||
| C Gull Unregistered guest |
6Music Rob - interesting question. I was listening this weekend and heard a few tunes I had not heard for a while and enjoyed (A Certain Ratio, The Stranglers, The Beat) and thought this is great I'll listen more often. Then some doubt began to creep in as I could n't help feeling that this was eerily reminscent of being at the In-Laws listening to Great Yorkshire Gold - 'Oldies All Day Every Day'. Will my boy and his cousins think I'm a sad old git who just listens to the same old stuff again and again?? | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 19 Registered: 08-2004 |
I'd sell my soul but can you imagine having to be nice to Williams. | ||
| Brook Crowley Member Username: 1_fan Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2005 |
Being such a popular song an such a popular album ("Spring Hill Fair") on such a popular record label (Sire records) I heard a rumour that "Bachelor Kisses" and "Spring Hill Fair" were both certified gold in England, where the band spent most of their lifespan, and also the most popularity. Is there any truth to this? Did any other Go-Betweens records go gold in the UK? | ||
| Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2005 |
This level difference is interesting, because I don't recall noticing it, having listened to the Sire (German pressing) vinyl countless times since its release. So I tried an experiment: I have a high-quality (192 kHz 24 bit) transcription I made of the vinyl a few years ago. I also have a resampled, CD version of the transcription, as well as the Circus (2002) reissue of the album. I took tracks 1 and 2 from the vinyl and CD reissue and made A-weighted Leq measurements using audio analyzer software. Leq is a measurement standard adopted by the motion picture industry that is used to ensure that the loudness of motion picture trailers is consistent with the feature film. It is simply a time-averaged sound level. For the vinyl, Five Words is actually about half a dB *quieter* than Bachelor Kisses! The CD reissue is a different story altogether. Five Words is over 5 dB *louder* than Bachelor Kisses! What's more, examining the shape of the frequency response envelopes for the tracks, the midrange (around 2 kHz) of the Five Words reissue is boosted by several dB... | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2004 |
if i remember correctly, 'bachelor kisses' was recorded at a different studio from the rest of 'spring hill fair,' meaning that originally, it likely came from a different master tape. so, it's entirely possible that 'bachelor kisses' was mixed down and mastered at a slightly lower level, but then the volume was boosted for its inclusion on SHF. so, years later, when they got a hold of the masters to digitally re-master them for the CD reissues, perhaps they neglected to boost 'bachelor kisses' volume. | ||
| Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 2 Registered: 05-2005 |
Well, that makes sense - at least from the standpoint of matching the levels of the two tracks. However, that leaves unanswered the issue of the different frequency balance. And I apologize for getting a little technical here, but sound quality, to some extent, is a technical issue.  Here are plots of sound energy vs. frequency, for those four tracks, over the range where the most important differences exist (100 Hz to 10 kHz): [img] http://www.pbase.com/rsub8/image/43032554.jpg [/img] (might be best to open the image in a separate window, to look at while reading below) I've plotted them so tracks 1 and 2 from the vinyl and CD reissues (respectively) can be compared. Keep in mind these are A-weighted Leq measurements, that represent the frequency balance of the entire song (not just a snapshot at some particular point in the song). The overall frequency balance of the vinyl and CD versions of Bachelor Kisses are remarkably similar. (There is a recording level difference shifting the vinyl curve lower; it seems that I set the levels of my CD transcription a few dB quieter than the commercial CD. ) What's important to note is that the shape of the curves are almost identical. (Also note that this isn't intended to be commentary on the relative merits of vinyl vs. CD - just an illustration of the recording level and frequency balance of the recordings in question.) Comparing the vinyl and CD of Five Words, a different situation exists (the sound level scale of the graph is exactly the same, so that shifts in the curves reflect an actual, absolute change in sound level). Not only is the CD over 5 dB hotter (than both the vinyl AND the previous track on the CD), but more importantly, the frequency balance is different (the curves have different shapes). The upper midrange boost of the CD could either be caused by plain old EQ, or by multiband compression (making the midrange levels affected to a different extent than other frequencies). Which one is responsible could be determined through additional (and time-consuming) sleuthing. But at this point, this is all one needs to know - that the frequency balance, and therefore the overall "sound" of the recording have been altered. A level shift can be compensated with your stereo's volume knob (and 5 dB is quite a large level shift). However, a change to the frequency balance of the recording is far more objectionable. I just wonder why it wasn't also done for Bachelor Kisses, while whoever was at it, was at it. | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 12 Registered: 02-2005 |
Well, it's either what Rob sez or you have to blow the dust off the friggin' needle. | ||
| david swift Member Username: Daveswift Post Number: 4 Registered: 04-2005 |
No Go-Betweens records ever went gold in the UK. EVER. I was once upon a time part of an irritating clique of music press journalists who tried to push the band on to the public with astonishing regularity - to overwhelming indifference. I can tell you - the GoBetweens have had more airplay on UK radio in the last four weeks than in the whole of the 1980s. | ||
| Richard Lim Member Username: Re17 Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2005 |
David Swift - good grief, what a blast from the past. :-) And Jeff, you're quite right, Bachelor Kisses wasn't produced by John Brand as was the rest of Spring Hill Fair, and wasn't done at Miraval Studios and thus didn't benefit from the studio's SSL desk which, as Robert noted at the time, was "sonically quite ferocious". |