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     Admin Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 24 Registered: 08-2004 |
This thread was lost during a recent site repair operation and has had to be reconstructed. All posts are present, however post dates are now inaccurate. Posts were originally made during the period 14th - 20th April 2004. | ||
| Mark Ilsley Unregistered guest |
Jus something amusing I heard on the radio this morning. The list of Top 10 grossing Australian Entertainers for '03 has just been released. At No. 7, Bjorn Again with 8.2 million AuD. There's more money in Australia for ABBA covers than artistry. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
You seem suprised, Mark. I believe I know about thirty people (old work colleagues, relatives, etc) that have been to see "Mama Mia" and other various Abba related shows. I guess their resurgence can be largely blamed on 'Muriel's Wedding' coming out, to a lesser extent 'Priscilla: Queen of the desert' in the early ninties and a general glam/disco revivalism. It's a culture to be proud of, surely. The state of the music and entertainment industry in Australia at the moment is, I believe, appalling. From venues battling bogus noise restrictions to just an overwhelming public indifference to hearing new and original live music, as a young musician I find it very despairing. At least I live in Melbourne where I have the oppurtunity (while venues can still remain open) to choose from a plethora of musical acts and have access to good community radio; but the mood of complacency is so prevalent that most nights I feel I just want to lock my door and sit inside with a big bag of chips and some cheap TV. Most other muso's I know are exactly the same. I feel there's no infrastructure there, no patting on the back - everybody is so bitchy and jealous. You got a gig, where? I've been trying to play there for months and you get one without even trying? Un-fucking believable! Even friends don't hardly bother to support your band anymore. Sorry to sound upset but it gets to me. Maybe I just know the wrong people, but I'm glad we can all gather here and be passionate about the music we love. | ||
| Padraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Hey Pete, when you hit your mid-30s (like me), a big bag of chips and some cheap TV is all you want sometimes! However, I do feel sorry for people in their late-teens-to-mid-twenties that are not going to see live music every chance they get (as I did in when I was in that age bracket). How can you have great memories of the bands you saw in your youth if you didn't even bother to go? I wrote an 1100 word newspaper feature on Kurt Cobain's legacy for the 10th anniversary of his death last week. I could not have written it if I had not had personal experience of the Nirvana phenomenon through seeing them live twice. I'm looking forward to the day when I can show it to my now two-an-a-half year old daugher when she is a teenager and thinks Kurt Cobain is the coolest thing ever. Hopefully that won't then sour her on the whole deal! | ||
| Michael Unregistered guest |
What do you mean, Padraig?? Since hitting my mid-thirties, a big bag of chips and some cheap TV is all I EVER want! | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
Padraig, the thing I feel is missing, and perhaps it's more my problem than anybody else my age, is the want to see these bands. I was too young to fully embrace Nirvana and I don't think the late ninties had a band as important as them to cling on to. More commonly, today's young music buffs are digging up the dead. Eg, my three most recent purchases have been the Beach Boys' "Sunflower/Surf's Up" CD, Beatles "For Sale" LP and the Tendrils "Soaking Red" CD. Okay, the latter isn't too old but new music, while valid is rarely vital listening. I don't buy into the Ryan Adams lauding or the White Stripes. My morning rant was based mainly on my feelings as a musician and the general feeling I myself get from the Melbourne band scene. But then again, why are we all here? How many of us on this chat room would champion the Go-Bs if it wasn't for their glorious past? Is there anyone here who became a fan on the strength of the new albums? I sound like an cranky old fool and there are plenty of new bands I like, but Mark's post just sent me reeling before my first cup of coffee for the day. In fact, I think I'll be needing another right about now. | ||
| Gareth Unregistered guest |
I don't think there's too much wrong with Bjorn Again. I love Abba ('SOS' is one of the greatest pop songs ever written) and there are far worse things in the world than some entertainers (which is what they really are) trotting out some great pop music night after night. You have to see if for what it is. Personally, i'd rather pay my money to see them and have a fun night out than listen to much of the po-faced music that is around these days. Humour is something that seemingly has dissapeared from music. Both The Beatles and The Smiths knew the importance of this which is what contributed to their lasting appeal i think. Anyone care to discuss? If anyone's interested, my sacred cow for this week is Brian Wilson / Beach Boys. What a load of overrated tosh. Some of the stuff on 'Smile' is almost unlistenable. Like listenning to someone read a book over an easy listenening record. Cue hate mail! | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
I'm a gnarly 47 years old. And, yes, I write and record my own music. I join Gareth in his comments about Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys. My older brother loved them and bought all their stuff up to about "Good Vibrations." I always thought that they sounded like some sort of Four Preps for snot-nosed West Coast kids. Brian Wilson was a pretty decent ersatz Phil Spector-type producer but I can't rate them beyond that. The White Stripes don't interest me nearly as much as they seem to interest others. It's just another iteration of metal. And get ready to throw the brickbats at me: I view Nirvana in the same light. My experience has been that when new music starts to get stagnant, another good wave is just percolating under the radar so let's hope that's what's going on now. And I don't think humor ever disappears. The Strokes have plenty of it. Too bad they don't seem to have any musical growth. While you are digging up old things, do you ever root around in the Australian attic? I've gotten quite a kick from some of the anthologies of 60s Australian music. For example Terry Walker in his various bands and also the Black Diamonds--their "See the Way"is just awesome. And on the more pop front, the Bobby & Laurie stuff is pretty good. Wearing out old Easybeats records (most of which were very obscure here in the U.S.) was one of the ways I lived through the dreary first half of the 1970s. Possibly the single greatest thing about RF and GM for me is the way they NEVER do pastiches of other people's music. They seem to write strictly their own material which incorporates other influences only in the most organic and seamless way. This, to my mind, is the most honest approach and yields the most durably worthwhile music. Pete, for some of us (obviously including myself) the new GoBs' music is merely the latest phase in the stream of work done by these two people who we would gladly follow wherever they went. We have the solo records and listen to them as well. We have Jack Frost. We've even dredged what we could from Far Out Corporation. And we're happy as hell to have the two working together again. Some of us understand that the type of songs they will write today can never be the same type of songs they wrote back when when everything they did was still a new discovery. They will be honest and write what oldish farts my age write if we are being honest, but still engaged in the world. | ||
| Gareth Unregistered guest |
Randy, couldn't agree with you more on Nirvana. OK band but nothing more. They could have existed at any point of the last 30 years and normally would have dissapeared without trace but for some reason they got noticed and the rest is history. I think The Darkness are the same sort of thing. How many bad metal bands have come from Britain since Black Sabbath? Britain has always produced bands like this but most remain in the clubs and soon split up. Why and how The Darkness succeeded is beyond me but that's the joy of music - there isn't a specific formula for success and you will always be surprised. Regarding the Beach Boys, i'm amazed people put them in the same light as The Beatles. More Gerry and the Pacemakers i reckon... | ||
| pups Unregistered guest |
Just a quick note to say that I think the Beach Boys are fantastic, one of my favourite bands. It's the melodies that get me. And while I agree that Nirvana are overrated, to compare them to the Darkness seems way out of line. Nirvana weren't actually a comedy band were they? Still, this is fun.. I'm going to upset a lot of people by saying I find Patti Smith overrated. I've tried for years to enjoy her music - mainly because Robert and Grant are such big fans fans - but it all sounds totally humourless and embarrisingly pretensious to me. | ||
| Gareth Unregistered guest |
My comparrison of Nirvana to The Darkness was more based on my thinking they both belonged to a long line of bands, many of whom never made it (and many of who were better), who seem to have been 'adopted' by press and fans and hoisted higher than they might deserve. You are right though Pups - they are a complete comedy act. On the subject of knocking established acts i wouldn't want people to think i just go around slagging off other bands. I think something bad happened around the time of Oasis's rise whereby it became the norm to only repsect canonised bands like The Beatles, The Jam and The Sex Pistols (to name three). Anything that never sold in great volume was seemingly dismissed. I think this attitude has faded but it's still around to a degree. What this site has shown is that there is great deal of affection for those bands who never made a 'Pet Sounds' or a 'Sgt Pepper' ie. Blue Nile, Roddy Frame, The Saints, The Chills, The Go-Betweens etc. Long may this continue or we'll all end up with the same record collections and subscriptions to Uncut and Mojo... | ||
| pups Unregistered guest |
Nicely put Gareth. Hopefully things are changing a bit now, with bands like Franz Ferdinand sounding less like The Beatles and more like Josef K. My frustration with Nirvana is the whole Pixies issue. Nirvana took so much of their sound from the Pixies, but I think the Pixies were by far the better band. | ||
| Gareth Unregistered guest |
I think the Pixies have been ripped off by many, many acts, none of whom measure up to them. I heard they once did a set of songs in alphabetical order, so tired were they of touring and playing the same set night after night. How can you not like a band who did that?!?! I don't blame them for touring again. Early reports are good and if they make a lot of money then good luck to them. Would rather it went to them than to some second rate immitator. | ||
| Padraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Brian Wilson is God you unfeeling monsters! Pet Sounds really is the greatest record ever made! (After The Chills' Softbomb anyway). I think The White Stripes are great, The Strokes are utterly overrated, Patti Smith's music is (mostly) tuneless, melody-shy crap, and Nirvana were amazing - remember people that Bryan Adams' abominable (Everything I Do) I Do It For You was number 1 in the UK from from July 13 to November 2 1991. Nirvana helped to blow all of that away, at least temporarily. Who bought that awful Bryan Adams song? It can't just have been exclusively bought by teenage girls with cloth ears and crap boyfriends surely? Pete, there is some great music out there, even in your own city, ie Augie March, a band whose beards are forgivable due to their great music. They disprove the theory that no-one with a beard ever made a great album. Kings Of Leon's album is up there with the White Stripes as last year's best (and don't believe the nonsense about them sounding like Lynrd Skynrd. They don't. They are far closer to being a mash-up of Thin Lizzy-Rolling Stones-Lou Reed-Buffalo Tom. And they have beards!). | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
Haven't heard any Kings of Leon. I own the latest My Morning Jacket album, which is quite good - but not great. The Thrills are alright but they are an obvious throwback to the Byrds and the Beach Boys. On Pet Sounds: I think Sunflower is a better album. I actually prefer Wild Honey and 20/20 to it too, although I love Pet Sounds and realise why it is the classic it is. Gotta say, Padraig, I don't think too much of Augie March. Randy, you're spot on about the Go-Bs music. It is true and I enjoy all the solo albums, Jack Frost and the FOC. I love the new albums too. In fact, I rarely listen to the old ones anymore but give the newies a repeated flogging. I'm just saying we put such a value on them for their old music, forgive them a bit more. On bearded music: you can't go past the Band and their brown album. I declare it the best album ever made, actually (that my young ears have heard). Patti Smith is embarrassingly pretensious, pups, but 'Horses' still rocks out. What do you people think of Bob Dylan. I think he is the greatest living artist (and if he were dead he'd still be the greatest). Dylan has made some shonky albums, but geting back to the point of an artist's body of work being greater than the sum of its parts, that's why Rob's and Grant's work can stand up to it. Of course, I don't think they're near as important or vital as Dylan. I wish Robert and Grant would as daringly change sounds as Dylan did from album to album, which is one of his main attractions and why even the weaker albums are worth checking out. Am I preaching to the converted or do y'all hate the lingerie selling bastard? | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
P.S - I thought the Roots 'Phrenology' was the best album I heard last year. Is hip-hop a no-no in this chat room? | ||
| Padraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Love Dylan. Greatly amused by him doing a Victoria's Secret ad. Want to see it. Forgot to mention earlier that the OutKast album is also great. Think you and I might be in the minority in being hip-hop fans here though Pete! Public Enemy are one of the most important bands ever. | ||
| Mark Ilsley Unregistered guest |
Pete: I've hit children for less.  | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
Hip hop, at its best, is obviously important music. It's a much newer form than all of the rock-derived stuff we've been talking about. To be honest, I just haven't made much of an effort with it, aside from buying a copy of "Fear of a Black Planet" a zillion years ago. I'm too much into guitar-based sounds. Pete, I'm amused that you are listening to such things as the Band. I think they wrote a lot of great songs that need to be done by other folks (and most of them have been). What I'm amused by is your pursuit of music of another generation. It's kind of cool to be so retrograde. It reminds me of my best friend in high school who was always listening to Django Reinhardt and Robert Johnson when he wasn't listening to the Flamin Groovies or the Velvet Underground or somebody trashy like Gong. God I miss him. Last I heard he was living on the street--so be aware of what happens to younguns with time warp tendencies! If nothing else, Dylan spawned the longest and richest tradition of would-be imitators and so many of those imitators were great just because of the way they missed the mark. I'd put Gene Clark, Ray Davies, Paul Kelly, Donovan, Lou Reed, Michael Stipe and David Gray in that group, just to pull people from several different decades. And the list goes on and on. Even our GM has done a lot of Dylan posing--it's the only posing that I find totally forgiveable. Dylan is great--obviously so. Unfortunately I find a lot of his records hard to listen to especially the 60s classics because they are so badly produced. Out of sheer stubborness I refused to own a single Dylan album until very recently when I broke down and got "Blood on the Tracks." Totally brilliant of course and obviously a major departure point for "Horsebreaker Star." I'm not sure about this beard thing. I thought some of the early Manfred Mann stuff was pretty good and I'll bet some of Duffy Power's sidemen had beards and in the mid-60s Duffy Power was great. I don't think he ever had a beard though. I sure do get some great tips on here for more recent music to explore. Yeah, I'm pretty unfeeling when it comes to Brian Wilson. | ||
| david nichols Unregistered guest |
I would stand up for The Beach Boys too, I have to say. Like Pete, the late 60s (which is when Brian threw the whole thing open for all the band, post-Smile which I agree is overrated, which doesn't mean it's not better than most records) Sunflower, 20/20, Wild Honey - all great stuff. I probably listen to 20/20-Wild Honey (together, because I have them on one CD) about once a year, so I'm not saying I'm a BB fanatic. But I do really enjoy that era. I am surprised ( though not horrified) to read such anti-BW/BB feeling here. | ||
| jerry Unregistered guest |
public enemy and bob dylan are 2 of my favourites both are in the top 10. chuck d and dylan i would put in the same league as lyricists. public enemy's last 2 albums have been up with their best albums of the 80's.it can't be easy with the amount of lyrics on a hip-hop album to not repeat yourself but public enemy rarely do. never seen the relevance of the beach boys or the beatles. maybe i feel as though i have to like them because of pet sounds and revolver being voted as 2 of the best albums of all time, i'e played them both a lot of times and neither get above average for me. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
On Beach Boys: has anyone here heard any of Dennis Wilson's solo stuff. What I've heard off "Pacific Ocean Blue" and the aborted "Bamboo" is marvelous. I know there has been a bit of a Dennis revival (see major MOJO article last year) and it's definetly his contributions to "20/20" & "Sunflower" that make those two LPs stand out for me. Sorry to carry on but they're my current musical fixation at the moment. And after I just got over the Byrds! I was waiting for a impassioned and informed reply from David Nichols on my emotional speel regarding new live music which set off this thread (especially being an authority and regular commentator of Melbourne's local music scene). Is it below you or do you have a real axe to grind? It appears to be so easy for us here to appreciate old music, harder to come to terms with the new. My thoughts today are that there is just so much out there to listen to that new art is losing its significance. P.S - I liked Gareth's dig before at Uncut and Mojo readers. I probably sound like I'm an devoted reader, which I am, but I believe they are guilty, particularly MOJO, of polluting minds like mine with revering the old and overlooking the new. What is a good new music journal? Magnet magazine seems filled with too many too-cool-for-school bands and Rolling Stone is a joke these days. | ||
| david nichols Unregistered guest |
Below me? I actually feel that the Melbourne music scene, despite my constant predictions of what's just round the corner (I have never got over what happened in Sydney when all the pubs went to trivia nights - just before the pokie boom and widespread gentrification) is in fine form - I'm not unhappy about its condition at all. There are heaps of bands around I really like... you can't use a Go-Betweens bulletin board as a gauge (you probably weren't, exactly, but I'm just saying) because essentially the people here are united only by one enthusiasm and otherwise are varied and disparate. More universally and I think interestingly, it's always worth remembering that the most interesting bands and musicians suffered a lot of disappointment in terms of low attendance and lack of interest. The Go-betweens in their early 80s days would often play to a handful of people. It's cool. Old stuff is always good to have around. Personally I have always felt you can't have too much information. | ||
| Gareth Unregistered guest |
Pete & Padraig, You are not alone in liking hip hop here. Over the last 4 or 5 years most of my records of the year have been hip hop singles. I think the problem is the albums aren't quite there but some awesome singles. The Outkast album is terrific though. I think they're one of those few acts who are genuinely talented and have crossed over without selling out at all. Interestingly, Andre 3000 is influenced by The Smiths and The Buzzcocks and Big Boi's favourite artist is Kate Bush. They seem to be having fun too which goes a log way. Public Enemy's 'Son of a Bush' is a great track too. For those interested, I saw Prince live the other night. As good a gig as i've been too. Forgot just how good he is. If you get the chance to see him do go along - you'll be entertained. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
David, I know from reading your posts here and your contributions to Beat magazine and Careless Talk and others that you have broad musical interests and a finger on the pulse, so when I said "below you" I was refering to myself being perhaps a bit too cynical and bitchy (I knew I should of worded the sentence better). Sure, Melbourne has plenty on offer, I just tend to come across people in other bands who, a bit like Damien Nelson says in your book, have the attitude of what can you do for me. Maybe my band just sucks but it'd be nice to play to even a handful of people not just there because it's beer o'clock. | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
Pete: aren't all artists supposed to be narcissistic? I would expect the "what can you do for me?" attitude. I'm amused that you were just heavily into the Byrds and now into the Beach Boys. The same older brother who tortured me with the likes of "In My Room" and "Fun Fun Fun" (yes, I realize you've been talking about the later things) next went for the Byrds which became more of a lifelong fixation. This was back in the days of cheap automatic record players. He would put a side of "Turn Turn Turn" or "Mr. Tambourine Man" on and raise the arm so that it would just play over and over. It was many years before I could handle hearing those records again. However I am a major Gene Clark fan. I like hearing about some of the new folks I might be interested in on here. I figure people who love the GoBs have to have a pretty high minimum level of musical taste. Comments on this web site have made it clear that I need to get some Laughing Clowns stuff. I hoovered up all the Ed Kuepper solo work I could find quite a while ago. It's interesting to hear the comments about Outkast. The only thing I've heard is that novelty song that's being played to death on the radio here in the states. It least it features guitar! But it is so rare that anything of genuine interest gets exposure on the radio in this country that I've come to view radio play as a sure sign that something is crap. That's interesting about their influences. Eclecticism is generally a good thing. As for the Rutles, well, they've been totally exposed haven't they? I didn't know that "Revolver" was rated so highly. It used to be thought of as a bit of a time-marker. "Tomorrow Never Knows" is the one thing on there that will forever be great. Pete, what kind of stuff is your band doing? | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Unregistered guest |
Wow, I'm a bit surprised by some of the hatred expressed above towards Brian Wilson. I guess you guys just don't "get" major and minor 7ths? Perhaps the Pet Sounds/Smile/other late 60s-early 70s Beach Boys stuff has been hyped up quite a lot over the past 5 or so years, but much of the music from that period moves me pretty deeply. It's hard for me to see how anyone with a passion for melodic, gorgeous pop would dislike songs like "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times," or "Child is the Father of the Man," not to mention the chilling melodicism of the sarcastically titled "Surf's Up" (from after they abandoned the surfer schtick), or the gorgeous Smile version of "Windchimes." Given that I've entered the discussion a bit late, there's not a whole that I can add, but I think it's a bit narrow-minded to completely dismiss the man's music like that. That said, I do agree with the people who find Patti Smith overrated. Not terrible, but sometimes it does kind meander off into nowhere. I can see why other people might like her, but it's just not my thing. I also have to admit that on some level I admire Mojo's reverence for all things old. Yeah, sometimes they go on about bands that were never worthy of the praise in the first place, but there's so much crap out there in music today. Believe me, I've listened to A LOT of contemporary indie music, and only a tiny portion of it does anything for me, or shows even a hint of originality. Most music that comes out today is a pale immitation of far superior bands form 20+ years ago anyway. Some bands copy the past pretty well, and leave their own unique stamp on it, but I think we're currently in a really bizarre period for rock/pop, where there's a serious drought of genuinely well-crafted pop music. Besides, I can't rail too harshly against a magazine that's had massive articles about the Smiths, Low-era Bowie, and Thin Lizzy in the past few years. True, they overlook a lot of lesser knowns with their retrospective pieces, which is criminal, but I'd much rather read about some of the music I love than garbage like Radiohead or the White Stripes or the Yeah Yeah Yeahs. | ||
| Gareth Unregistered guest |
I wouldn't go as far as to say I 'hate' Brian Wilson. To almost quote Woody Allen - I prefer his earlier, funny ones. The surf stuff is great but 'Pet Sounds', 'Smile' etc is music to trim your beard to in my book. I think it's music you appreciate rather than like. Patti Smith always makes me feel like i'm being lectured to. Just don't find it enjoyable at all. Great to see Thin Lizzy mentioned though. Fantastic band. Completely underrated i reckon. | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
Who hates Brian Wilson on here? I have Pet Sounds as well as the album that preceded it ("Summer Days and Summer Nights"). It's been years since I heard "Wild Honey" and the other later records. All I'm saying is that they don't strike me as the fantastic ground-breaking artists that they are touted to be. I have to agree with Gareth's remark about it being music you appreciate more than like. It's been years since I heard Patti Smith. At the time I dismissed her as a half measure. I wonder if I'd still agree with that today. Somebody who seems to me to be somewhat influenced by her (albeit with a heavy country alloy stirred in) who I really love is Lucinda Williams. Her current album "World Without Tears" is great--simple backing band and quick recording schedule--just the way it should be. Going back to old stuff again, Jeff what do you think of the Beau Brummels? There's a great case of overlooked talent further hamstrung by record company hassles. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Unregistered guest |
"I think it's music you appreciate rather than like." See, it's statements like that which I find sort of troubling. Songs like "Surf's Up," "Windchimes," "Cool Water," "Let the Wind Blow," "'til I die," "Caroline No," "That's Not Me," "Cabinessence," "Child is the Father of the Man," etc... give me fucking goosebumps. They make the hairs on my arms stand on end. They make me go weak in the knees. They send multiple chills up and down my spine. And I know I'm not the only one. Surely this can't be generalized as merely "music that you appreciate rather than like." And as for it not being groundbreaking - have you heard Cabinessence? Listen to that and tell me it's not one of the most sublimely fucked up songs written at that point in the 60s. Have you heard Surf's Up? In that song, Brian Wilson does with a piano what most people would need an orchestra to pull off. The man was using complex chords and chord-changes that NO ONE had thought to use in a rock or pop context up to that point. And to me they are fucking gorgeous. And think of all the hugely important artists who've been inspiried by this particular era of the Beach Boys - from John Cale to Stereolab, the Cocteau Twins to Fleetwood Mac, and even Paul McCartney was positively floored with the stuff, often citing "God Only Knows" as the ultimate pop song. Like I've said in dozens of other posts, it's all subjective, and we all have a different frame of reference for what we hear as melodic, or pretty, or whatever. Hell, I can't stand anything they did before Pet Sounds (save for the excellent "Let Him Run Wild") so I guess I'm guilty of it too, in a sense. Beau Brummels - I was never hugely into them, but they were certainly worthy of the kind of Byrdsian success that seemed to elude them. They even sparked the country thing about the same time as the Byrds. Since we're on the subject of 60s bands, anyone like Love? I guess it goes without saying in many circles, but Forever Changes has got to be one of the most amazing albums of the 60s, or any time for that matter. To my knowledge, the Go-Betweens have never mentioned Love, but I can imagine them being influenced by it, especially the richly melodic acoustic stuff. And finally (geez, I'm really starting to ramble here) Gareth, you've seriously made my day by acknowledging Thin Lizzy. I think they are definitely underrated, particularly by people who can't look past the butt-rock, tight-jeans-crotch-bulge, swagger image they put forth, and see that behind all that was basically some insanely well-crafted and heartfelt pop music. Jailbreak is one of my all time favorite records. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
Jeff, I adore "Forever Changes" and most of the stuff off "da Capo". All the Beach Boys songs you listed certainly give me the chills. 'That's not me' is definetly my favourite off Pet Sounds. 'Til I Die' is just heavenly. I'd place it next to Harrison's 'My Sweet Lord' in the hymnal pop category. Randy, love Gene Clarks "No other" (turned on to by MOJO!) and have been meaning to buy "the Fantastic Expedition of Dillard and Clark" for quite some time now. To answer your question, my band (I'm just the lead guitarist, not the songwriter) play a scrappy, scratchy sort of rock'n'roll, although there is an obvious country element there too. We've been compared to the Band (we're a five piece with an organ player), the Strokes (no fucking way) and Bruce Springsteen (unlikely) among others. In my assessment, we're all such incompetent musicians who listen to such different music that we have a pretty original sound. We're definetly nowhere near the trendy rock'n'roll revival of the moment: our singer sings with a very country-ish twang and we're gradually growing into a much darker beast with a late eighties Oz-rock sound akin to the Beasts of Bourbon and a hint of Radio Birdman (70s); but there's definetly the sound of Dylan circa '65-'66 with the Hawks backing him. There's harmonica in the group too, a drummer who refuses to plays toms and a bass player who wears board shorts, has a computer hackers pony tail and perpetually wears his sunglasses on his head. Our singer/songwriter has a mysterious sense of timing, our organ player has her own band and is obviously more devoted to that and I now live an hour away from them all. We play nearly all originals but covers we do/have done include: That's Alright Mama (Elvis, '54), Goin' down this road feelin' bad (Woody Guthrie, I think) and Mind Your own business (Hank Williams). They're not truly representative of our sound though. We're called the Happy Lonesome and next play April 29 at the Old Bar in Fitzroy, Melbourne. Perhaps you could fly on down for the momentous gig, Randy. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
Oh, Randy, I forgot to add we've been compared to Keith Richard's drunken friends: an accurate though probably not a very positive description. Our most prestigious gig was supporting Ed Kuepper in our home town of Geelong. Ed didn't watch us, however, but he was very polite in person despite the fact that we played to a full house @ $15 a head and didn't see a cent of the takings. I'll stop talking about myself right. . .NOW. | ||
| Padraig Collins Unregistered guest |
I don't trust people who don't love Brian Wilson and Paul Westerberg. Grooving to Señor Coconut as I write this! As an Irish man, it warms my heart to see Thin Lizzy getting props here. (How about that for hip-hop patois!) | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
Wow, Pete, I'm trying to put together sounding a bit like the Band and Radio Birdman. It sounds fun. Opening for Kuepper sounds pretty damn prestigious to me. Concerning Gene Clark, by all means buy "Fantastic Expedition." It's one of his strongest sets of songs as you will find right away when you start listening. Another great one is "White Light" which is probably his most Dylanish set. My quibble with "No Other" is that the arrangements and production seem a bit overblown to my ears--this is a common failing of 1974 vintage music. There's too much instrumental stretching to songs which would be more effective in shorter form. My personal favorite on that album is also the shortest (I think)--"Silver Phial." | ||
| Craig Davis Unregistered guest |
Nice plug Pete. I think part of the problem you're talkig about in this thread is there just isn't going to be anymore great rock and roll or soul or jazz records again. All of the older styles of music are played out. Take the new Al Green record. Its sounds good, the songs are good, the production, everything is fine. There's no waning of Al Green's talent but the record does not compare to his classic records. That sound has come and gone. And even when it's faithfully repoduced (like the Daptone's stuff for example) it sounds silly. I feel this way about everything new that has a lineage back to those (as decided by Mojo) classics. There has been several posts about Nirvana et cetera. They were a substantial social phenomenon (everyone's starting a three piece and all that) but I think Grandmater Flash, the Beasties, Bjork, Portishead etc are much more important musically. There's nothing new under the sun any more but on some scale those bands had something to say and production to make it happen. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
Readers, Mr. Craig Davis is the drummer who 'refuses to play toms' in the band I'm in. I bought him the new Al Green record for his birthday just gone. I find his comments cynical and snide and my gift completely wasted on his jaded ears! If our music is so derivative and uninspired, man, why soldier on? What about poor Randy Adams and his Band/Radio Birdman influenced group? I'm sure you'll get a lot of nasty replies about saying there's never going to be any great rock and roll or jazz records made again (but that's your style so bring it on). This is turning into a bit of a soap opera, isn't it? Craig, you make an interesting point, one I've been trying to articulate unsuccessfully in this threads previous discussions, in regards to musical durability and being able to appreciate music while it's fresh. Greatness appears to be a matter of timing, so in this instance Al Green has failed you. I guess what Brian Wilson is doing in touring Pet Sounds and Smile is highly inappropriate and culturally superflous, but the Beach Boys are just happening for me so I feel very lucky that he is doing it and I have a chance to hear those songs live (even though I couldn't afford to go see him). Same goes for Arthur Lee touring Forever Changes. I was equally as lucky for I had just started to get into the Go-Bs just before Robert and Grant magically decided to get together for the '99 acoustic tour. Time is of the essence and the timing just seems off to me at the moment. Who is great NOW and will I only realise somewhere down the track. I suppose it doesn't matter all that much. I like what Frank Black said in a Magnet magazine interview a couple of years ago about new music: he said something like "People tell me I should listen to the new so-and-so record and I just think 'why, it's a record isn't it - there's no rush, I can discover it later'. He is a genius though, who created great music that will, no doubt, last forever so why does he need to fall in love with "Elephant" or "Yoshima Battles the Pink Robots (or whatever that god-awful name is)" right now? | ||
| Craig Davis Unregistered guest |
Some good points Pete, I'll continue this with you outside as I don't think I'm a big enough Go-Betweens to take up too much space here. Interesting thread tho' | ||
| Craig Davis Unregistered guest |
Some good points Pete, I'll continue this with you outside as I don't think I'm a big enough Go-Betweens to take up too much space here. Interesting thread tho' | ||
| Craig Davis Unregistered guest |
Oops :-) | ||
| Mark Ilsley Unregistered guest |
Hey, this conversation turned into a great read, something that I never expected when I made my initial observation. I expected lots of groaned replies, effectively making the point "Yeah, we know already!" If I can make any other banal observations, I'd be happy to oblige(1). (1) The author would like to point out that he has a shit load of banal observations at his disposal. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
I must say, Mark, you're banal observations are becoming some what of a regular occurrence. You're like the drunken friend in the corner only chiming in for a lark and the occassional soft put down. Entertaining though. Got any philosophies to contribute? | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
Sorry Randy, I just realised that I misread your last post and thought you were putting together a band that also sounded like the Band/Radio Birdman. My mistake. | ||
| Mark Ilsley Unregistered guest |
Philosophy! I thought you'd never ask. Here is something I prepaired earlyer. 'Roy' is the pseudonyme I used for the Usenet Newsgroup, aus.motorcycles. Motorbikes and music are my two greatest loves. Thoughts on 'The Nature of Truth'. A radical perspective. ~(AKA, the musings of 'Roy')~ I've been thinking about something that many people may regard to be self evident and not worth discussing, and that is the nature of Truth. I do not contend for one moment that I have the answers distilled with greater clarity than the next person. I am not a philosopher, but thinking about things has never been their exclusive field of inquiry. I do make the claim that the nature of Truth is an issue that is pertinent to the self interest of every person reading this, and therefore cannot possibly be considered off topic. It has a direct bearing on the informational content of these pages, and is relevant to all aspects of life. More specifically, 'Truth' is an elusive quality in any NG environment[1], because it may so easily be hidden. Intentionally (by those seeking to confuse an issue) or unintentionally (by those who are confused by the issues). By now you are possibly saying to yourself, so what, I know that the truth can be an illusive quality of information, what have you got that's new?. Well nothing new, but something rare and valuable. A radical perspective. You are familiar with the procedure by which one of the combatants in an argument, may seek a reconciliation of perspectives with his adversaries, by singing off his reply with YMMV, meaning "Your Mileage May Vary", which is a colourful way of expressing the idea that the basis of the disagreement can be explained by divergent conclusions drawn from a different experience[2]. We readily accept this explanation, but rarely give it any further thought, or draw any conclusions from it, on the nature of truth. Of primary importance to my radical perspective, is the nature of observational data: a) We can only observe what we can see, smell, touch, taste or hear, so conclusions are drawn from observations filtered by the quality of sensory perceptions. b) We are only equipped with a finite mental capacity to observe. We are only capable of making 'x' number observations per minute. Only capable of recalling 'y' observations in total. c) Each of us has a preconception, based on our existing experiences, of what is important. d) We are all ill equipped for the task of observing some things. So when any 2 people observe the same event, each is likely to attach a different significance to what they observed, and will tend to remember only those facts which they believed to be important, and may draw different conclusions based on their appraisal of significance. In the example in point c) above, one solution to the dilemma of observational significance is to employ a technological device to record the event. Wouldn't that solve the above dilemma, if a video tape of the event could be produced and the event could be replayed, over and over again, and as long as it is necessary, until both parties agree on 'the' truth? Unfortunately, the answer must be a resounding No, dispelling our faith in our technology to record facts. What if the subject at issue was related to odour, feel or taste? What if the subject at issue was related to what thoughts someone was thinking at the time? What if the subject at issue was related to what emotions someone was feeling at the time? What if the subject at issue was related to what was the state of someone's beliefs at the time?[3] What if the 2 observers whilst veiwing the video tape endlessly, still could not agree as to what was significant. What if...What if...What if... Therefore, their is an observational, perceptual and conceptual paradox of truth, and it is NOT one on which we can always rely on technology to resolve. A paradox that may be succinctly stated as: "Truth, is often in the mind's eye of the beholder, and nowhere else may it be found". And here is the radical perspective... This realisation leads one to the conclusion that there may be more than one truth, i.e.: If you can accept that people are likely to Believe different things; If you can accept that the 'Truth' is, after all, only what you Believe it to be; Then one possible conclusion is that there can be more than one 'Truth', and provided a Belief is honestly held, it qualifies as a valid possible 'Truth'. Of course, a scientist would argue that there can ONLY be one 'Truth' because there is only one reality and that when people disagree as to the 'truth', then someone MUST be mistaken. Then the Scientific Method is employed to settle the argument. However, history is littered with scientifically proven truths that have been abandoned because new evidence has proved that particular interpretation of reality to be incorrect. In the scientific mind, does that make 'Truth' a function of time? Or does it make 'truth' a function of our (best) interpretation. If so, then what we have is essentially the proposition that SCIENCE regards 'Truth' to be whatever 'we' (the scientists, in this case) Believe it to be at that time, provided it is an honestly (scientifically honest, in this case) held belief. Now, it's only a short, but tenuous, step in logic to the acceptance of many 'Truths' at the ONE moment in time. The scientific method itself seems to accepts this principle. One example is the "Uncertainty Principle" in quantum mechanics.[4] [1] Because, we are without the instinctive tools normally available to us in our ordinary dealings with people, such as the facial expressions, the characteristic traits of the voice (uncertainty or confidence), body language (assertive or defensive), hesitations, nervous traits like blinking, etc. These indicators may lead us to drawing subconscious conclusions about what is or isn't the truth, without ever embarking on a factual investigation of the information being scrutinised. [2] My thanks to the co-author of this paper for explaining the relevance of this convention to my paper. She wishes to remain anonymous. She has been a constant source of comfort and encouragement. She is the rock of my life. [3] You might want to throw in beliefs with thoughts, but in fact they are quite separate. At any one time, you do not think about all you believe in (or know). Beliefs rise up from the subconscious as the thinking process recalls them (and sometimes we totally fail to recall them, as we all have experienced). [4] "Uncertainty in quantum mechanics is not connected to the probabilistic nature of the wave function. It is inherent in any wave function including those in classical physics. The inability to assign exact position and momentum to a particle MAY only mean that there is no such thing." "The inability to simultaneously constrain a particle's position and momentum is fundamental to the wave structure of quantum mechanics. The question of predicting the outcome of experiments is an independent one. For a hypothetical model based on stable dynamic structures it might be possible to predict the exact outcome of experiments even though the exact position and momentum of particles is not known because it has no more meaning than the exact location and position of a classical wave." "There are many properties like frequency and location that cannot be simultaneously measured with high accuracy. Such pairs are said to be non commuting*. None of this says anything about uncertainty or lack of predictability. That is a separate issue" * to yield the same mathematical result regardless of order. A quality that many properties don't have. [4] Quoted from the book: What is and what will be: Integrating spirituality and science. Paul P. Budnik Jr. 2001 | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
Thank you for opening my eyes to the truth Mark. You are truly wise and I could learn a lot from your way of life. I must now print this out and put it on my fridge. | ||
| Craig Davis Unregistered guest |
Mark, since this threads gone way off topic I thought I might chip in a couple of points... "b) We are only equipped with a finite mental capacity to observe. We are only capable of making 'x' number observations per minute. Only capable of recalling 'y' observations in total." Observations do not occur in discrete units that can be counted. Same for recall. Indeed they cannot even be seperated from each other. "Of course, a scientist would argue that there can ONLY be one 'Truth' because there is only one reality and that when people disagree as to the 'truth', then someone MUST be mistaken. Then the Scientific Method is employed to settle the argument." This is not the case. "However, history is littered with scientifically proven truths that have been abandoned because new evidence has proved that particular interpretation of reality to be incorrect. In the scientific mind, does that make 'Truth' a function of time? Or does it make 'truth' a function of our (best) interpretation. " Are you trying to sustain the point that reality exists and can be used as a measure while Truth does not? That is spurious. Anyway your point applies to all inquiries, not just the scientific method. By the way Pete, since I'm back, I can't understand why you would want to see the Pet Sounds show. What's the point - it was a studio album. Its like saying "I'd love to go and see the film Eraserhead live." Is there anyone who was originally involved on the tour except Brian? Brian's clearly not the musician he was so why not just go and see a tribute band if you want to see the songs live? Use the change to get an original pressing. | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
Wow. I've got a headache. I like the motorcycle/music axis. Mine is old italian cars and music. But music came first and will always be first. I gave up trying to figure out who was worthwhile in real time. I have a talent for discovering great music just after it's no longer happening. I discovered the GoBs when I picked up a copy of "1978 - 1990" on Beggars Banquet. And even then I did not fully appreciate them. I listened to the set a bunch of times but never thought to go buy the individual albums and eventually forgot about them. I pulled it out a few years ago when I was looking for something to play guitar to and was blown away by how great the best songs were as well as the RF/GM dynamic and ONLY THEN did I start to explore the Go-Betweens. This was probably in 2000. I discovered Magazine in 1983 when "After the Fact" was released and got really into them for a few years but was only able to see Luxuria since the real thing was already gone. At least I discovered the Fall in 1986 when they were still going (I think they still are) and even saw them when Brix was still in them. I can think of all sorts of people I listened to when they were current who, in retrospect, did not prove to be worth the attention. I agree that the hip hop originators are super important even if I cannot personally get too involved in that music. But I don't think that there's nothing left in the previous forms. That's never true. People come up with their own ways of doing what's seemingly been done before and it suddenly becomes relevant again. I do think that it is essential that you do exactly what you want to do and DO NOT pull punches or try to please an imaginary (or real) audience. I view large record companies as the enemies of good music just as large car companies are the enemies of car design. They force everything into packages designed to meet lowest common denominator tastes or--just as bad--preconceived niche markets. Los Angeles (where I live) is full of people working hard at making music and records that have already been done and are not even adding much of anything of their own to the mix. Fortunately digital technology and the net are fixing this. People can now make their own music without a huge amount of money AND they can disseminate it. I actually see a huge renaissance of music coming our way because of this. I want to hear what some isolated but impassioned and talented person in places like Darwin or Winnipeg or Swansea or Albequerque or Rotterdam is doing. I think that's what's happening now. The only challenge is uncovering it. I haven't heard the Al Green album. Sometimes music veterans can do breathtakingly satisfying work, but only if they do what they want to do instead of trying to produce what they believe other people want to hear. Your truth might not be the same as my truth. But I'm a hell of lot more likely to hear something new if I hear YOUR truth than if I hear your attempt to emulate someone else's truth. Btw, I just spent the weekend visiting my elderly parents. It's a 3 and a half hour drive each way so I got to listen to some great things. I was reminded what a great song RF's "Something for Myself" is. And Radio Birdman's "Love Kills." And there's a great new anthology of Esther Phillips' 70s work--a decided shift in musical style but truly great music. But I have to wonder whether Ed Kuepper's electronic music is going to hold up--I listened to "King in the Kindness Room." | ||
| Padraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is the most boring book it has ever been my misfortune to read. It is closely followed by Siddartha and Jonathan Livingston Seagull though. Three hippy sacred cows slayed in two sentences... I feel good. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi Unregistered guest |
Esther Phillips! What a voice. It's interesting you bring up the digital technology topic as a platform for expression in the music community. I listened to a radio interview Robert and Grant did on local Melbourne station RRR around the time BYBO came out and Robert was bemoaning the fact that a lot of crap was coming out because everybody had the technology. He claimed that in the days they put out vinyl and had to record in studios it was obviously a lot harder to do independently and therefore automatically "weeded out" weaker music. I was stunned by his attitude which I almost saw as a championing of the whole record industry process. Grant stepped up to the plate then and said he felt it was important for people to express themselves artistically so he was all for the technology, even though he probably has an aversion to the sound quality of digital versus analogue. Ah, the sweet lefty. What do you think about that? | ||
| Craig Davis Unregistered guest |
Randy, can you tell us a bit more about the Esther Phillips comp? I've only got a couple of her earlier things on Atlantic, but I really love her voice. I've read she did a corker version of Home is Where the Hatred is in the 70s. | ||
| Craig Davis Unregistered guest |
I agree Padraig, I found it very difficult to plow through all the out-of-date, self-important philosophical musiings re tecgnonolgy and romance et cetera. Perhaps it was more interesting in its day. Friends of mine who like it tell me you have to ignore all that stuff and read it as a father/son, mental breakdown drama. But then the ridiculous coda reinforces just how over the top his conception of himself as deep thinker is. I think Robert's point that Pete refers to has a lot of validity - it's like the internet. It has great side 'cos it's fairly easy for anyone to put up a page without much interference or kowtowing to anyone but the flip of that is that there is so much rubbish put up (like this post probably!) As music fans we spend an awful lot of time finding out about and talking about records that were 'ruined' by record company interference. We never spend much time thinking about the possibility that many records have been made stronger by the input of outside voice, even if that voice was only worried about the bottom line. And anyway we're all complicit in the stuff record companies are prepared to put out, which goes back to where this thread started. In Melbourne, where Pete lives and I live pretty close, there's indie music everywhere. You have to wilfully ignore it if you don't want to be part of it. The fact is that 99% of people do. Here's a little record company interference factoid that I found amusing - "Womack pushed UA into letting him do a full album of country music, something he'd always loved but which the label regarded as commercially inadvisable (especially under the title Womack reportedly wanted to use: Step Aside, Charley Pride, Give Another Nigger a Try). They eventually relented, and when BW Goes C&W met with predictably minimal response..." - AMG | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
The Esther Phillips comp is called, simply, "anthology." It has a 2003 copyright date and was issued by Soul Brother Records. It comes out of the UK and is distributed by Pinnacle. The catalogue number is CD SBPJ 16. It picks up where the Rhino anthology of her Atlantic years leaves off. She is a good example of a small record company doing well by her. She signed with Creed Taylor's Kudu label in 1971. "Anthology" kicks off with her version of "Home is Where the Hatred Is." It comes off her totally brilliant first Kudu LP "From a Whisper to a Scream." Atlantic always seemed to be uncertain of what to do with her. Creed Taylor seemed to have a better idea, at least until she was badgered into doing that painful (but successful) disco version of "What a Diff'rence a Day Makes." I'd love to hear Bobby Womack doing country. The distance between country and old school soul is pretty short. Just check out Roseann Cash's version of "This is the Way We Make a Broken Heart" or some of the mostly overlooked Betty Lavette records. It's very easy to take a song from one of those genres and do it in the other. And the idea of a proper soulster working in a country setting just sounds great to me. I don't care what the commercial results are. Remember how reggae artists would put their own interpretations on seemingly incongruous numbers? I love Toots & the Maytals' version of the otherwise sappy "Country Roads." For that matter, Toots Hibberts' version of Otis Reddings' "Dreams to Remember" is a nice blurring of the lines also. That's disappointing to hear about Forster's opinion of the new ease of making music. I totally disagree with him. There was always dross; I'm not put off by that. But I'm very turned on by the new access for great people who might otherwise never appear. However, I really am not particularly into commercial success. Another of my 60s favorites--the Zombies--neatly illustrate the total randomness of commercial success. I defy anybody to prove that "She's Not There" and "Time of the Season" are better than the huge string of commercial flops they made like "She's Coming Home" and "Whenever You're Ready." 99% of people ignore independent music because 99% of people aren't really all that much into music. They would never make the effort to hear something that isn't spoon fed to them by the mainstream media. It's just a nice atmosphere-maker for them. That's okay, but it's obviously not the way for anyone on here. | ||
| Craig Davis Unregistered guest |
It was just Wowack's audacious title I found amusing, not the idea of Womack doing country. The record's definetly on my list to track down. Thanks for the Phillips facts. | ||
| Craig Davis Unregistered guest |
It was just Wowack's audacious title I found amusing, not the idea of Womack doing country. The record's definetly on my list to track down. Thanks for the Phillips facts. | ||
| Craig Davis Unregistered guest |
Arrrrrgh, did it again, sorry everyone. | ||
| Mark Ilsley Unregistered guest |
It's not real serious guys, just some shit I wrote. I don't actually agree with it's final conclusion. I just wanted to see how far I could push a line of thought, perhaps make a few heads shake. I think the logic is fairly solid up to the point of that final tenuous leap. The "Uncertainty Principle" can't be used to substantiate any philosphical standpoint. It's not a philosphical principle. It does say some worthwhile things, but essentially I could paraphrase the whole thing by saying I think it is best to maintain an open mind on all matters. | ||
| James Unregistered guest |
Has anyone heard the 1972 album that Jimmy Webb wrote and produced for the Diana Ross-less Supremes? Webb's stuff has that faint whiff of country but he manages to get some soul into it too. '5.30 Plane' is the standout track. | ||
| James Unregistered guest |
Has anyone heard the 1972 album that Jimmy Webb wrote and produced for the Diana Ross-less Supremes? Webb's stuff has that faint whiff of country but he manages to get some soul into it too. '5.30 Plane' is the standout track. | ||
| Craig Davis Unregistered guest |
If you like The Supremes (and haven't already read it) you might like to check out Wilson's book Dreamgirl: My Life as a Supreme. It was a bestseller and can be picked up easily and cheaply second hand. It's not well written and definitely more gossip than hard fact but it charts the path to Ross leaving from one perspective, often in fairly bitter terms. It's a sad story all round of a very underrated group. | ||
| James Unregistered guest |
I might give that a try sometime. I enjoyed Ronnie Spector's 'Be My Baby', all the tales of Phil and his blow up doll of Ronnie were quite something |