| Author | Message | ||
     Mark Ellis Unregistered guest |
Does anyone know the origin of the very low-frequency (subsonic) "thumps" on several tracks on both CD reissues of BH? You'd think someone would have filtered it out during the mastering. Makes the woofers flutter like crazy. -Mark | ||
| thomas dk Unregistered guest |
I don't have an explanation as such but I've noticed those thumps too - not on all the tracks, though, only on "On My Block". I always thought it had something to do with the kick drum. Maybe if they used delay on some of the other instruments part of the signal from the kick drum was sent - by mistake - through the delay. Well, this is purely guess work and it is strange it was left in the mastering. By the way, I can't seem to hear it on the old vinyl version, so it's something the cd remastering has brought to light. On "Before Hollywood" there's a big difference between the vinyl and cd sound, the vinyl sounding a bit thin. The cd version I own is the Beggars Banquet re-issue, and I quite like the improved dynamics in the bass - except for the thumps! | ||
| Peter Azzopardi Member Username: Pete Post Number: 14 Registered: 09-2004 |
I notice the thumps particularly on "Two Steps" and "Cattle and Cane". I've made a couple of mix tapes over the years including these songs, and strangely this "thumping" becomes more prominent when transferred on to tape. What's with all this audiophallic debate anyway? I'm into this kind of shit myself but ultimately this kind of discussion detracts from the music. Wish I could track down that article with Bill Inglot regarding the new reissues. What did he say? | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2004 |
i've noticed the thumps as well. they are definitely not on the vinyl, nor are they on the original rough trade CD, which came out in '90. and yeah, i hear it on 'two steps' and 'cattle'. i find it disconcerting, and it's bizarre that such a glaring mistake was allowed to slip through. i only own the circus reissue because of the bonus disc, otherwise i only listen to the vinyl and/or rough trade cd because of those nasty thumps. for the record i always preferred the vinyl issue of before hollywood. the cd always seemed a bit harsh to me in comparison. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2004 |
can i hi-jack this thread to bring up another irksome "audiophallic" issue? does anyone have the '78 to '90 compilation on vinyl? several songs on my copy waver, the worst offender being "streets." it sounds like the master tapes were stretched or something, as whenever a certain note or chord is held, it sounds like the pitch fluctuates. anyone else notice this? it's pretty glaring on my record. this doesn't occur on the CD. nor does it occur with any other record in my collection, so it's definitely not my turntable. the vinyl isn't warped or anything either. however, it does occur on the 2nd issue of the "streets" single, the one with the teal cover. | ||
| Nic Barnard Unregistered guest |
Not the 78-90 compilation (mine's OK), but this seemed to be a fault on most of the copies of 16 Lovers Lane sold in Bristol when it came out. The second side had a shocking waver that started during Clouds and got worse as the side progressed. Worst affected was Dive for your Memory. That sweet closing note on the oboe just wobbled all over the place. I always thought Beggars Banquet had used really cheap vinyl. My copy of Tallulah (while we're at it) never sounded too good either -- it always sounded slightly distorted as if it had been recorded with the needle in the red. So all in all, I'm looking forward to getting the re-releases. | ||
| thomas dk Unregistered guest |
I think that kind of warbling stems from bad centering - the hole is simply not in the middle of the record. I have two copies of Danger in the Past - the one warbles, the other doesn't. My copy of Bright Yellow suffers a bit too. The last tracks on a side will always sound the worst, because the radius is smaller and the error in the centering will have an increasingly greater effect with each spin. It does not necessarily have anything to do with the quality of the vinyl as such. Both Rachel Worth and Bright Yellow are heavy pressings and sound really dynamic. I know all this must be a bit boring for people not into lp's. I am not a complete nerd, though. I do prefer a good clean-sounding second pressing to a crackling, groove-jumping first, so it's still music first, technical stuff after. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2004 |
thomas, that's pretty interesting, and it totally makes sense. the hole in my '78-'90 comp is probably just every so slightly off center then. i wonder if that would be the case with every record pressed that particular day at the factory. if so, then there must be a lot of funky copies out there. | ||
| Nic Barnard Unregistered guest |
Thomas, you're right of course that off-centring doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the vinyl. What I meant was that it seemed to me BB had cut corners generally -- as most record companies did in the 80s. As the decade progressed, records just seemed to get flimsier and flimsier. I always assumed it was an industry conspiracy to get us to switch over to CD! | ||
| thomas dk Unregistered guest |
I have no idea whether or not this bad centering affects a whole batch of records or just the odd one. But I do have quite a number of records that suffer from it, the worst being Lou Reed, "Legendary Hearts", US pressing. Fernando Saunders plays a fretless bass and especially at the end of side one the bass notes take some extraordinary swings. Jeff, I'm glad I'm not the only one to enjoy the vinyl versions. I completely agree with your comments on LL. I know it's hard to argue in favour of the lp compared to the cd. But there's something about the overall sound - there's a kind of depth and coherence missing on cd's. But then of course, digital sound has affected the whole way records are produced, the possiblities of editing, fixing and mixing are endless. One of the things I like about The Go-Betweens is a kind of old-fashioned approach to recording - especially, I think, on Roberts part. If you're interested in this kind of thing, there's a very interesting interview with Robert, conducted by Larry Crane, the producer, on http://prosoundweb.com/recording/tapeop/gobetween/gobe_13_1.shtml | ||
| thomas dk Unregistered guest |
Nic, I completely agree with your comments on the general deterioration of vinyl records during the seventies and eighties. My father gave me some records that he bought in the early sixties and they still sound fantastic. The other day I bought a Tom Rush lp, the label is Electra, those Electra records were literally so heavy and sounded just gorgeous - this is the way a voice and a guitar should be recorded. Then you get the eighties kind of vinyl - wafer-thin and as you say flimsy. After a couple of spins they sound like you've served pizzas on them. But I'm very happy to see vinyl back in vogue, it's increasingly popular here in Europe. And, of course, it's great that Grant and Robert have chosen to keep releasing their stuff on vinyl too. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2004 |
thomas, thanks for the link! i actually subscribe to tape op magazine (the recording/engineering publication that larry crane puts out, and who conducted the interview), though my subscription began well after this particular article, so i'm glad you found that link. really interesting. | ||
| allan Unregistered guest |
There is a letter from Robert Forster in the most recent edition of Tape Op. Apparently Grant subscribes to it & Robert borrows it when Grant's done. I'll transcribe the letter next week. | ||
| david nichols Member Username: David Post Number: 22 Registered: 09-2004 |
This might just show my own ignorance/inability to reason logically when it comes to whatever branch of science and/or mathematics this pertains to. But wouldn't the waywardness and therefore the warble be less on the inner grooves of the record, and more exaggerated on the outer grooves? | ||
| Peter Azzopardi Member Username: Pete Post Number: 16 Registered: 09-2004 |
Good point. Outer grooves have more space; you can put more bass on the opening track for this reason, whereas inner tracks are smaller. Also, there's less distance for the needle and record to rotate, so the warble becomes more frequent and thus more noticable. | ||
| thomas dk Unregistered guest |
I'm not all that confident about the geometry myself. But I think Peter's explanation is correct. The warble is more noticable on the inner grooves. But the character of the instrument is important too. The warble is always worst on for instance piano and woodwind, less so with voices. I'm sure someone who knows about acoustics - or whatever the science is - could explain this. | ||
| Peter Azzopardi Member Username: Pete Post Number: 17 Registered: 09-2004 |
I don't know science, but I'd assume piano and woodwind warbles more noticably because the notes typically ring out and sustain, as oppossed to the halting way guitars and percussion are played in rock music. Your dead right about pianos dk; my vinyl of BYBO arrived terribly warped and "Unfinished Business" can best be described as dizzy sounding. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2004 |
yeah, any sustained note or chord is going to warble. that's why "streets of your town" sounds so bad on my '78-'90 comp. in the verses, the guitar chords are held and allowed to ring out, so they warble horribly. | ||
| Craig Davis Member Username: Craig_davis Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 |
The effect of an off-centre hole is usually referred to as 'wow'. If you are very keen it can be corrected by drilling out the hole dead centre and using an adapter or spacer. Normally it dosen't cause too much of a problem, I have plenty of records with off-centre holes and most play fine. Don't have the one in question, sounds like a real shame. | ||
| Peter Azzopardi Member Username: Pete Post Number: 20 Registered: 09-2004 |
Thanks for the tip Craig. I'm reminded of a scene in the mocumentary "A Mighty Wind" (makers of "Best In Show" and "Waiting For Gaufmann"), about the folk music scene in America's '60s in which one group explains how their declining popularity equated with the record company fobbing them off to smaller, subsidary labels which had such poor quality pressings that people had to punch their own centre-holes. This meant they were largely way off and the arm skitted from edge to centre. LOL. | ||
| Padraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Pete, I can't believe you mentioned A Mighty Wind, Best In Show and Waiting For Gufmann ... but did not mention the mighty Spinal Tap, also by the same people. You crazy kids, don't you even know Spinal Tap? Best rockumentary ever (though 24 Hour Party People and Live Forever run it reasonably close). | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2004 |
i think spinal tap would best be described as a "mockumentary." | ||
| Padraig Collins Unregistered guest |
What Jeff, you mean Spinal Tap were not a real band? Say it ain't so mister. | ||
| Peter Azzopardi Member Username: Pete Post Number: 21 Registered: 09-2004 |
Sorry Padraig. You, of all people, know I'm obsessed with the past. I thought of writing Spinal Tap but I wasn't sure, as I haven't seen it all, if it was by the same makers or just had some of the same people involved. Speaking of obsessions with the past, has anybody else here read Dylan's autobiography "Chronicles: Vol 1" yet? I was flawed by it--one of the best books I've read this year. Thankfully he hasn't gone for the "Tarantula" approach to writing this one; it's told straight (sort of), though few mysteries are revealed. He remains private about his family and relationships but reveals a hell of a lot about his frame of mind at three watershed moments of his career. Now if only he would write about his fascinating Christian phase. I'll hopefully be appeassed by a forthcoming volume (if he bloody writes them). | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 17 Registered: 08-2004 |
This is a good case for those who are pro-CD, I've never heard of a CD not having the hole dead centre. Maybe when the record industry is pushing a new format on the public CD'S will start having more glitches. By the way, Padraig Spinal Tap are both real and fictional, I've seen them. | ||
| Cichli Suite Member Username: Cichli_suite Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2004 |
Check out the recent 'rockumentary' from Metallica : "Some Kind of Monster". It's a laugh, even more so because these hoary old axe swingers really exist. "Some Kind of Monster" There, I've done it. Metallica and The Go-Betweens on the same page | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2004 |
padraig - spinal tap are a joke band, albeit a totally brilliant one. their whole reason for existence is to poke fun at the institution we know (and possibly love) as heavy metal. they are all good musicians, so once the film took off, they figured they'd take it on the road, and pretend to be a "real" band. sadly, i haven't ever seen 'em live, but i'd love to. cichli - i totally want to see that metallica documentary. i've heard it provides no end of unintended giggles, and no shortage of cringe-worthy moments. | ||
| gareth Unregistered guest |
Pete, Right with you on the Dylan book. Was blown away by it too. Didn't expect anything so frank to come from him so late in his career. Some great passages in the book - the way he describes the fame whilst trying to bring up his kids, his honesty abuot losing interest in the music...could go on and on. The structure makes me wonder though. Did he write it in this non-chronological order or has he written the full lot and this is merely structured as the first book? Like many other things to do with the man he leaves you guessing. | ||
| Padraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Sorry Jeff, I was being a bit sarcastic. You deserve better, it's not like you are that Mark eejit who so annoyed all of us in the past. I love Spinal Tap and have seen it more than any other film. I have it on both video and DVD. I'd love to see them live too. The first time I saw it was in The Screen cinema in Dublin and I went to a concert by English metal band Magnum that same night at the SFX! I have seen the Metallica film. It's great, even if they are big metal babies having their mental nappies (diapers) changed by a psychologist. I mean no offence to people who are in genuine need of seeing a psychologist by the way; Metallica only did it so that they could make another record and add to their already vast fortunes. Still though, I have to say that Metallica in the Point Depot in Dublin in October 1996 was an awesome spectacle. There you go Cichli, I think I have out-metalled you there! | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2004 |
well, i met cliff burton's parents before he died. and i remember buying master of puppets the day it came out. i remember it vividly. i was 11. i had a mullet. and one of those classy "metallica - metal up your ass" t-shirts with a picture of a toilet and a dagger coming out of it. c'mon - speak up! how many other ex-metalheads do we have on this board? padraig - after i wrote that i suddenly realized you were being facetious. too much head banging in my early adolescent years has given me permanent brain damage. or something. | ||
| Peter Azzopardi Member Username: Pete Post Number: 22 Registered: 09-2004 |
I'll own up to once being a Metallica fan, though my metal fixation stops about there (didn't mind Suicidal Tendencies and, of course, as a bogan--there's some Australian slang for you--kid I also loved the Gunners). I no longer am, I feel obliged to add, but I still possess "Master of Puppets" and I do plan to see that documentary. I saw them here in Melbourne in '92 (I think) when I was about 11. I recall they had the Snakepit on stage and I knew a couple of people who were lucky enough to be in it. I actually taught myself to play guitar from Metallica tab books, though the Beatles were my first true obsession at the tender age of 8. I guess I was a pretty morbid kid: I enjoy telling the story of, when I was in grade 4, taking the film-clip of "One" (the version with the disturbing parts of the war movie in it) to play to my fellow class mates. Luckily I'd recorded it on Long-Play and the schools VCR only had Short-Play playback or I might have had traumatised some of my fellow classmates (which was probably my intention in the first place). | ||
| david nichols Member Username: David Post Number: 23 Registered: 09-2004 |
And I liked the way Pete said he was 'flawed' by the Dylan book. I'm not being sarcastic. I just liked that twist. | ||
| Peter Azzopardi Member Username: Pete Post Number: 23 Registered: 09-2004 |
Are you having a go at my spelling again Nichols? Unbelievable. In my defence, Dylan's music, and rock music in general, has created many flaws in my character over the years. | ||
| Padraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Re: Flawed. Yes, what a very Freudian slip. |