| Author | Message | ||
     david nichols Member Username: David Post Number: 31 Registered: 09-2004 |
Tonmorrow night on 3PBS-fm I'll be doing one of the one-hour 'Niche Market' programs on the Go-Betweens' precedents and peers. ie.the groups who made the Go-Betweens possible and the groups who the Go-Betweens have made possible. It can be heard as a live stream via http://www.pbsfm.org.au/ and the show is Wednesday night 7 pm Melbourne time. | ||
| Peter Azzopardi Member Username: Pete Post Number: 34 Registered: 09-2004 |
Robert and Grant often talk about how much they love Bob Dylan, then and now, and yet I'd be hard pressed to identify a real influence on their sound and songs. My question is, I guess, will you be playing any Dylan tomorrow and can you give me an idea of what you'll be playing?(I'll have to miss the broadcast unfortunately). | ||
| Michael Member Username: Michael Post Number: 11 Registered: 08-2004 |
Good point Pete Haven't been on here much since the heady moments when the lions missed out on flag 4, much to your joy I suppose. Except for the obvious Please Crawl Out Your Window, Positively 4th St - People Say and the Jack of Hearts on recent album's Ballad of the Go-Bs. | ||
| Cichli Suite Member Username: Cichli_suite Post Number: 22 Registered: 08-2004 |
Hi Pete, I made a similar comment a while back on another Dylan related thread: General GoBees/Dylan discussion Randy replied: To my ears, there's loads of Dylan influence on "Horsebreaker Star," most blatantly on "What Went Wrong." But the best way to be influenced by somebody is subliminally--as one of the many ingredients that forms your concept of what is good and therefore goes indirectly into your own work. David Nichols added: If 'lost album'-era recordings count, which maybe they shouldn't, there was also a version of 'Most Likely You Go Your Way and I'll Go Mine' put to tape at that time, so, a much earlier Dylan cover. And also fsh: The Go-betweens did a great live version of 'Hurricance' circa 88/89. Pitty it wasn't captured for the 16LL set. I had a listen to Horsebreaker Star and I could hear what Randy was talking about. Personally, I'd love to hear that cover of the 'Hurricane' Cichli | ||
| lindy morrison Member Username: Lindymorrison Post Number: 23 Registered: 09-2004 |
David’s play list Jonathon Richman Hospital The Go-Betweens 8 Pictures The Bee Gees ? The Monkees ? The Go Betweens Too much of one thing Aztec Camera Mattress of Wire The Apartments All you wanted The Four Gods Enchanted House Royal Court ? Love Me ? The Servants Sun of Small Star Thanks David | ||
| JohnD Unregistered guest |
Hi to all users of this message board. Looking for to a good xmas with the last three reissues just purchased. Hope the new year sees the new album and possibly a live album (the London Barbican show released??)) Any way hope everyone has good festive season and a Happy New Year -for me its bee very enjoyable reading the debates and points on view on this bors | ||
| david nichols Member Username: David Post Number: 33 Registered: 09-2004 |
Thanks for listening, Lindy. I'm so glad I didn't know you were tuned in, I might have panicked. I actually had rehearsed a long spiel on the incredible influence and importance of Lindy Morrison on Australian music today (this was one of the reasons for the Love Me and Royalchord tracks) but like most of the rehearsed ideas (everything after Hospital/8 Pictures) it all went out the window. On that Royalchord track ('Notion of Invisibility') the drumming and the song structure both sounded amazingly Go-betweenish - particularly Send me a L/B Hollywood era Go-Betweenish, to me. The drummer in Royalchord at that time was a guy called Ollie who I know nothing about, don't know if he had any interest in the GoBs. But sometimes I do say I feel Royalchord are the Go-Betweens of the new decade, with their twin-guitarist, twin-songwriter approach, their middle-class backgrounds, their interest in arcane Americana, the way they arrive at remarkable pop structures apparently effortlessly and appear to write from the heart regardless of how mundane the subjects are. The difference being the two main songwriter-guitarists are women. I suppose also Robert and Grant would say THEY are the Go-Betweens of the new decade. | ||
| Steve Unregistered guest |
David why would you use the word "pop" about the Gobees? Its meaningless. The Smiths were a pop band, New Order, REM, The Boo Radleys etc etc. When I think of pop Australian bands I tend to think of The Church, The Hoodoo Gurus. In other words, there has to be some element of actual "popular" success. The songs have to be strong enough or memorable enough or seductive enough to be loved by a few more people than we fans (or critics)! Surely enough people have heard the Gobs to enable them to be "pop" if that's what people loved. It's like that thing that Bono says "The measure of a great pop band has never been how much it is written about, but how widely it has been loved, how many hearts it has reached". We have to accept the Gobs on their own terms - I'm sure they do - and if they don't include being pop, well so what? If they're a "pop" band, surely then thousands of other indy song based bands are "pop" bands? There are plenty of people who write better melodies after all. And no, as a matter of fact, not even the Go Betweens are the Go Betweens of the new decade without LIndy, Amanda and Robert Vickers!! They are Robert and Grant with a backing band, plain and simple. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Pop is a sound Steve. Though the word derived from popular, it certainly is not required that you be popular in order to be pop. The Go-Betweens are pop. Not pop as in Australian Idol, but pop nonetheless. I'm sure the Shannon Noll website has an interesting debate you could contribute to. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
David, thanks for the tip on Royalchord. I've just downloaded and listened to three songs from their website www.royalchord.com. What wonderful music. I think they owe quite a bit more to Giant Sand, Howe Gelb and Arizona than they do to The Go-Betweens though (well, you did mention their love of Americana). They have themselves a new fan; one who will now go buy their records. See, downloads from a band's website work! Do they ever play in Sydney? I will be there next time they do. | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
I agree that pop is a sound. At its best, it is a disciplined sound characterized by tight eventful arrangements applied to songs which are both relatively simple and distinctive. At its worst, it is gimmicky and predictable. A quick listen to songs like "Bachelor Kisses," "Right Here," "Streets of Your Town," and "Rock n Roll Friend" make it quite clear that the GoBees are pop. In fact, the new master of "Tallulah"--which I'm just loving--makes this wonderfully clear. Check out all the little arrangement details. Those things are pop. Interestingly enough, I'd say that the Church's more recent records have less pop quotient than Grant and Robert's work. We could have an interesting discussion about whether the Apartments' "Fete Foraine" is pop. The excellent melodies and memorable lyrics along with such touches as the almost Bacharach-like trumpet that Peter Walsh obviously favors would certainly suggest pop. But the style of performance does not seem very pop to me at all. Perhaps "haute pop"? | ||
| Jimmy Quinn Unregistered guest |
Regarding Steve's assertion a week or so back that "not even the Go Betweens are the Go Betweens of the new decade without Lindy, Amanda and Robert Vickers!! They are Robert and Grant with a backing band, plain and simple". Well, not really that plain and simple. Although the line-up Steve suggests is a great one, possibly the best, it was only together for 18 months and produced just 1 album, Tallulah. If Adele and Glen are playing on the forthcoming album which Grant and Robert have said in interview they are, then Adele has been in the band for 4 years (longer than Amanda) and played on 3 albums (the same number as Robert Vickers). Glen has played on 2 albums (the same number as Amanda) and the present line-up has already been together for two and a half years. Robert and Grant with a backing band? If so, then it always has been!....No? | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 23 Registered: 08-2004 |
Robert Vickers has posted here in the past regarding bass melodies/parts which actually were originally written by him. I think "Bachelor kisses" and "Part company" were among those mentioned, this says a lot about his status as more than just a member of a backing band. | ||
| gareth Unregistered guest |
This could be an interesting (and overdue) debate. I wonder if Lindy, Robert V, Amanda or John ever felt they deserved a writing credit for some of the songs? Willsteed's contribution to some of the '16 LL' tracks ('streets...' in particular) seems to be fairly strong and added a huge amount to the track, as did much of Robert V's contributions where the melody is driven by the bass. Perhaps it was purely contractual. | ||
| david nichols Member Username: David Post Number: 36 Registered: 09-2004 |
Three weeks later - why did this thread die here? Surely Lindy has a few thousand (definitive) words to say on this subject... | ||
| Peter Azzopardi Member Username: Pete Post Number: 36 Registered: 09-2004 |
I concur (sorry, this ain't Lindy). Having played in (and currently playing in) bands myself, I've painfully learned that band politics are the ugly side to the beautiful process of music-making. Ultimately, a group is usually somebody's, not a democratic unit whose members share equal amount of responsibility and creative credit. At the same time, that somebody (or somebodies) has got to realise that the overall picture is only as good as the sum of its parts; arranging the song is the most obvious example, though there is other emotional (and transportational) aspects to consider too. I guess, in the case of the Go-Betweens, the arguement Robert and Grant will always run with will be the fundamental aspects of songwriting: namely, chords, words and melody. Sure, they'll point to the records and various line-up changes too, but who put in the hardest yards when establishing the band? Considering the way Robert and Grant exploit the brand-name now, I am surprised that there was a time (according to Nichols' bio) when Robert hardly "pulled-rank" regarding group decisions. Lindy probably hasn't replied to this thread because it seems she always having to validate/defend her contribution here (that's my impression anyway, sorry if I'm way off on that one). I admit I don't fully understand her chairs and table metaphor about the recent LPs, but having given so much of your youth to something and then to have yourself misrepresented by a charlatan version of the group must be difficult to deal with (not that I don't love Adele and Glen's playing). I'm still a young guitar-picker (24 this October), but I'd be devasted to get the shaft from my band of the last four years after all I'd put in (that day will have to come when my car finally croaks it). Hell, no-one even knows us, but a band, to use a cliche, is like a dysfunctional family and no-one can really understand its intricacies unless they're on the inside. I'd like to ask you, David Nichols, how you feel about the various changes to the Cannanes, the band you founded a long time ago now that has little semblance to the original line-up? By the way, I hear Marc and Mia did a smashing job filling in for absent Happy Lonesome members on NYE. | ||
| gareth Unregistered guest |
I didn't expect Lindy to respond and my post wasn't really directed to her (Lindy - hope you are well. Enjoy your posts a great deal), more my thinking aloud. I've always wondered whey some bands (REM a good example) seem to split everything equally whereas others (GB's) seem to want to emphasise divisions within the ranks from early on. I think Pete is probably nearest when he pinpoints the chords, melody etc as the basis for the song and therefore the creator of this should get the credit. What this must do to the psyche of a band I can only guess. Quite often the thing that lifts a song out of the ordinary is a contribution from another member - Willsteed's solo on 'Streets...' for example, Lindy's drumming on 'Spring Rain' another example. Without these elements the song might not even be noticed as the gem it is. Indcidentally, Lindy's contribution to the site tells us more about the comings and goings of the GB's than Robert and Grant ever do. Time for another interview guys or, dare i say it, some info on the new album, no doubt soon to be retitled 'Chinese Whispers'... | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
As a non-musician I don't know that I can be of much benefit here, but I can point out some examples of how it does, or does not, work, that you may not be aware of. With Blur Damon Albarn writes almost all of the songs and is credited that way. But with the publishing he takes 50% with the remainder split equally between the other band members. The same was true of Irish band The Fat Lady Sings. Their singer Nick Kelly, who told me (and the rest of the class) this when lecturing us in law in college, wrote all of the songs and got sole credit, but split a percentage of the publishing with the other band members. Conversely, the situation with Oasis is that Noel Gallagher writes most of the songs and takes all the publishing from these. With U2, even though Bono and the Edge write most of the songs on their own, the credits and publishing are split four ways. The reason for this is that U2's manager Paul McGuinness advised them when they were first starting out that the greatest cause of bands splitting up was disagreements over publishing. With scriptwriting for television or films the person or persons who wrote the original script is the only one credited, no matter how many re-writes the script subsequently goes through. A classic example is Cassablanca, where two people are credited with the original story and three others are credited with the script, but there are reputedly at least five other writers who contributed to making it the work of genius that it is. The difference between the music and film worlds, it seems, is that the uncredited film script doctors are handsomely paid for their contributions. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
ps David, I bought a Royal Chord album over Christmas. It's even better than I had imagined it would be. Thanks for the tip. | ||
| gareth Unregistered guest |
Re: Noel Gallagher taking most of the publishing. Probably true but not including the one he ripped off Stevie Wonder and had to forfit most of the royalties. Not sure if any Eels fans visit here (33 track double cd due in April!) but Butch, the drummer, quit the band due to near bankrupcy. The band don't sell many records and what royalties there are (mainly from the Shrek soundtracks) go to the songwriter. Furthermore, the hired musicians on tour were getting more than he was as he owned a % of the band and therefore a % of the costs too. Similar thing with Richard Wright of Pink Floyd. He was sacked and re-employed as a temp for the 'Wall' tour which lost money. He was the only one to come out of it with any cash in hand. Horses for courses i guess...has anyone read the Nick Mason book on Pink Floyd? The dullest acount of being in a huge rock band and driving expensive sports cars i've ever come across. Enough to make you take up accountancy. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
I'm an Eels fan Gareth, though I did not get the last album. I love the first three. I even have E's two pre-Eels solo albums. | ||
| lindy morrison Member Username: Lindymorrison Post Number: 37 Registered: 09-2004 |
No Jimmy Quinn, whoever you are, there is a difference. In the first line ups of the Go Betweens (John Wilsteed was the first excluded), the band members each had a recording contract with the record companies that The Gobs were signed to. This ensured that that we are entitled to an artist royalty. This also confirmed we are all members of the group legally. As a result of that, we receive royalties (when recouped) on sales and communication to the public rights. In Australia, on those recordings I played on I actually own the rights in the soundrecording as does Amanda on the albums she played on. I have discussed these rights in earlier postings. We own all 6 in Oz and so receive royalties on these. We own the rights to the first three throughout the world so receive royalties on those. The last three on Beggars are unrecouped but we are patiently adding up the figures (or lack of). There is no way that the new Gobs rhythm line up have record contracts, they would be paid a wage. Secondly I worked for the Gobs for 8 years before I made a buck (88). When the band broke up in 1990 I owned nothing but a drum kit. I have worked very hard in the last 15 years to discover the royalties that are my due. It would be a different situation for the new rhythm section who would have walked into a financially viable proposition. Now the publishing saga is another long story, which I will leave for another time. | ||
| Peter Collins Unregistered guest |
It's interesting what was written here regarding rewrites of film scripts. As a freelance sub-editor (you might call it a copy editor in other parts of the world), the work I do on other people's copy can range from minimal tidying up (such as correcting spelling mistakes and poor grammar) to complete rewrites, which might even include extensive research to establish whether facts are correct or to bulk up the factual element of the piece. In neither case do I get (or, to be honest, expect) a credit. It's just the way it is, and I do get paid (sometimes) at the end of it all. By the way, if anyone has any books that need proof reading....... very good rates... professional service... yadda yadda. (Incidentally, any spooling mostukes herein are entirely doe to my lack of proffesssionalism. | ||
| Robert Vickers Unregistered guest |
The comment about publishing spliting up bands is so often correct. While I was in the GBs the publishing was paid into our bank account from which our wages were drawn. So the publishing was split while the band was together. My feeling about the GBs is the same now as it was when I joined the band. Robert and Grant didn't need any help coming up with melodies and lyrics, they needed help with the arrangements. That was the job Lindy and I did on those records. And even though I'm not at their rehearsals now and can't say for sure what's going on, it appears that the band then did more arranging than Adele and Glenn (excellent musicians though they are)do. And arranging, by the way, is not my understanding for what a backing band does. If you listen to the first recordings Lindy did with the band you can see her influence. I was trying to do the same thing with Man O'Sand. I was looking to move the band in my direction by writing a part that changed the song for the better. That's what I believe being a member of a band is about. Making the song better, even if you didn't write it. | ||
| lindy morrison Member Username: Lindymorrison Post Number: 44 Registered: 09-2004 |
yes that was true about the publishing in the band at that time. Our wages were shit as you will recall. But I believe we were all worth a split for the life of the works. Remember our only income from the artist royalty is after recoupment (recording costs,videos, tour support). The mechanical (or songwriter royalty) about 8.7% of wholesale is from the first record sold. In many ways the performers subsidize the songwriter by investing their future income (if any) into the recording of the songs. I sound like Lenny Bruce on his trials again. |