| Author | Message | ||
     Ellen Degenerate Unregistered guest |
Does anyone know if the go-betweens are ever playing in the US again? I love them so much and it makes me sad that I have not ever had the chance to see them. If anyone knows anything please let me know. Thanks! -Ellen | ||
| fsh Unregistered guest |
Ellen - The Go betweens will be bringing freedom and democracy to your country very soon on a tour sponsored by some company called Halliburton. That is assumning that they manage to get past airport security and their flight doesn't stop over in Guantanemo Bay via Shannon Airport (Ireland) I am absolutely ashamed to say. | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
Ouch, fsh. The truth hurts. I recommend combining a GoBees concert with a trip to Europe. That's been my solution. Of course it's significantly more expensive now also because of the incompetent economic management by that person 59 million people allegedly recently voted for. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2004 |
yeah, the fact that the go-betweens didn't come to the US after bybo is incredibly frustrating. they toured here for rachel worth, but they did the acoustic thing (having sacked their drummer before crossing the atlantic), and that's just not the same as seeing them in full, electric glory. besides, we already saw them in the US doing the acoustic thing on the tour they did in support of the bellavista terrace compilation. truth is, they do have a lot of fans out here, not to mention jetset has worked pretty hard to keep the go-betweens catalog afloat in the US, so they'd be neglecting a continually growing portion of their fanbase. people also mention how touring the US can become costly since everything is so spread out, but if you're willing to rough it a little, it's very do-able and *not* that expensive, as i know plenty of people (myself included) who've done it. but we've discussed all these things at length here before, maybe a year or more ago. my guess is that the go-betweens skipped the US last time around in favor of doing more shows in other parts of the world that they normally wouldn't get to. | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
Somehow I figure they tour in places they'd just personally like to visit. Maybe the U.S. is too much like Australia to be worth the bother. Hopefully, they'll release the Barbican show. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Randy, I'm pretty sure they play in places they will get a decent audience. Hence they play a lot more in Ireland (my homeland) than they do in Australia (their homeland, my adopted country). I know they had that Spanish tour disaster with Teenage Fanclub that we read about in David's book, but apart from that they just seem to play where they can make a bit of money. And why not, they've suffered for their art for long enough. | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
I wonder how an Irishman copes with the Australian heat. I'm sure you are right, Pádraig, about the GoBees' motives for where they play. But I like to indulge in the fantasy that they just go to places they regard as worth visiting. I figure if you're an art student type and you've spent your life in Australia, it'll be deeply cultured spots like the countries of Europe and east Asia that will interest you and NOT someplace with the same comparatively callow culture as where you are from. Of course, I'm just projecting my own attitude as an American here. I hope someday to go to Oz and see what it's like. I bear in mind Robert's lyrics to "Cat's Life." | ||
| Alfred Unregistered guest |
It's the Go-Betweens' continued absorption of American influences and support (Dylan and the Monkees in the early days, Sleater-Kinney now) that lends vitality to their music. | ||
| david nichols Member Username: David Post Number: 34 Registered: 09-2004 |
The US and Australia do not have the same culture. They are both postcolonial cultures, both English-speaking and some dominant strands of cultural life have British antecedents. But neither US nor Australian culture could be described as 'callow' as far as I am concerned. Australian culture is a rich mix some of which is indigenous (see Germaine Greer's Whitefella Jump Up, 2002), some born from the last 220 years of white settlement (see for instance Russel Ward's The Australian Legend, 1958) and the nature of that settlement, some from the last fifty years of non-English speaking post-war immigration. America has a remarkable culture as well, which similarly has roots in different waves of immigration, historical events, indigenous peoples, etc. The idea of a 'deeply cultured' place is bizarre to me, and in comparative terms surely there can be no such thing. This concept reminds me of a statement by an English woman I once knew who could not understand why Australians were concerned with notions of culture whereas to her the British did not have a culture, they 'just got on with it'. Which is to say, she felt that Britain was a neutral place, 'normality', and culture could only be recognised as difference. | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
The woman you are reminded of is a product of a deep culture. She can't see it for that very reason. Perhaps I should have used the word "evolved" instead of "deep." What strikes me when I go to Europe is the obvious adaptation of nearly everything I see and hear to the circumstances of the country. I will not speculate about Australia here, as I obviously know nothing about it. But the U.S. is where I've lived for my entire life. It is still grindingly unevolved--from the primitive urban development to the inadequate transportation to the desultory social service delivery systems. I do not mean "culture" in the narrow books/art/music sense. The continual influx of immigrants to the U.S. has indeed been its great secret of success but it still has not had enough time to evolve a truly effective way of absorbing its immigrants. In this one respect, incidentally, Europe seems to be even worse off than the U.S.. It will probably be the U.S. that first solves this puzzle with the greatest success. But I bet that moment is still at least 100 years away. Here's another example, David. Witness the U.S.'s persistently strong strain of Christian puritanism. This atavism continually threatens the cultural, technical and social progress of this country. Incredible as it may seem, in the opening years of the 21st Century, public schools in some parts of this country are slipping so-called "intelligent design" aka "creation science" into science textbooks. This country brought its own government to a virtual standstill a half decade ago just because the chief executive got a blow job! I submit that this is evidence of a very partially evolved (frankly, immature) culture. | ||
| david nichols Member Username: David Post Number: 35 Registered: 09-2004 |
Randy, I apologise, I was not fully attuned to your definition of culture, but you have to acknowledge that when you talk about US transportation and urban development, you're talking about the country that has made greater contribution to these things than any other. There may have been some sideways steps since then, and while I agree these things might be poor now, I don't think you can call this a lack of 'evolution'. I would tend not to defend the political culture of the US, though it's still probably better/more 'evolved' (not sure of this terminology in this context) than most countries'. I would certainly defend Australia in the area of urban development. Transportation - in terms of public transport - is more of a problem here these days than it used to be as are social service issues. In any case, the Go-Betweens would surely not resist touring America for the reasons you outline. And as others have suggested, RF and GMcL are (or at least have been in the past) very devoted to certain aspects of US culture. They still like many US groups. I don't really think they've been influenced by Sleater Kinney (there's some suggestion that it's the other way around, but I'm not sure I'd go with that, either). I can't see a Dylan influence. I know GMcL really likes the Monkees but I don't see too much connection there either. Nevertheless, the idea of artistic scenes and coteries like Warhol's Factory etc was something that seemed to consume them in their early days, a good example of how American culture impacted on them then. Most bands outside the US see touring the US as a magnificent and noble ambition. I myself have toured the US 4 times with three different groups and each time it was a rewarding and eventful experience I would recommend to anyone. Most groups who thought they could profitably tour the US would do so I'm sure. I never did it profitably, in the financial sense, but always gained. | ||
| Peter Collins Unregistered guest |
Blimey, if you want crap transport infrastructure, you should try living in London! And we want to host the Olympics. Isn't it incredible that it's cheaper for me to fly to, say, Austria than to take the train to Liverpool: talk about a de-evolving culture. (I shall refrain from mentioning Gandhi's comment on Western culture, cos I'm sure you all know it. Look it up, if not.) | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Randy, this Irishman is coping quite well with the current Australian summer as it is, thankfully, very mild. David, I completely agree with you about Sleater Kinney. I see no influence either way. In fact I think that Sleater Kinney's music is awful caterwauling rubbish which only gets any notice at all because it is made by women, a couple of whom are lesbians. I'm not saying they have no talent, just that they have no talent in what they do together. Their work with The Go-Betweens was good and one of them plays great music with her ex-husband in Quasi (I saw them play a great show in Melbourne six years ago. They both supported Elliot Smith and played as his band. Oh, this was also the occasion that I met the stupidest door bitch I have ever encountered. She asked me where I was from because I had an accent. "Ireland," I said. "Iowa?" "No, Ireland." "Holland?" "Ireland". "Waa Waa?" "Can I just get two tickets for the show please?" "Can you what?" etc, etc.). | ||
| Alfred Unregistered guest |
Padraig, "awful caterwauling rubbish" is your opinion, to which you are entitled; but to suggest that critics - male and female - are hoodwinked because SK's music is "made by women, a couple of whom are lesbians" is repulsive, quite beneath you. I've enjoyed reading your informal criticism on this board, but a remark like that subverts everything you've said before. As for the Go-Be's influence on SK, yes, it's slight; it's even slighter than Robert Forster's suggestion back in 2000 that he hears a "Before Hollywood" vibe on SK's albums. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Alfred, yes that's my opinion. Awful caterwauling rubbish. The empresses have no clothes on. How does my opinion on one very minor irritant "subvert everything" I've said before? I do think, though, that a lot of male critics like the idea of all-women bands subverting the male-dominated rock plutocracy and that in doing so they frequently back the wrong horse. Which is why Sleater Kinney were feted but a genuinely maverick, brilliant talent such as Ireland's Gemma Hayes has made little or no headway despite releasing a superb debut album, Night On My Side, in 2002 (and several great EPs before that). By the way Alfred, I'm listening to Mable John as I write this. | ||
| Chris S Unregistered guest |
A slight PS. I once had a quite aggressive drunken argument with various people at a party when I dared to proffer the opinion that "Americans have no inherent culture of their own". Unfortunately I was not given the oppurtunity to finish my line of reasoning through being shouted down for being stupid and ignorant. Through my alcoholic haze I could see the irony here as, unlike the other five or six people there, I have travelled from London to the States around 20 times (noone else had crossed the pond). If allowed to, I would have added that I was referring to the so-called "white majority" where, for example, in restaurants, all attitudes are acquired and, possibly, copied. I could go on for ever about this, and could qualify this with the presentation of classical music, etc. Great country, great people (to a point), but why, oh why, did they go against the founding fathers' principles and use religion as a focus in the election? Gawd, even catholics voted for GWB.... | ||
| Alfred Unregistered guest |
Padraig, I'm a male critic, and my support for Sleater Kinney has nothing whatsoever to do with their sex. Sorry. And this goes for every other critic I know. They like SK for many other reasons which have nothing to do with biology and gender. Actually Chris, Americans have progressed since the time when Gore Vidal posited that we have "no culture." Thanks to rock and roll, we do. We don't need classical music. Why would we need it, when we have Leadbelly, Lonnie Johnson, Dylan, and The Band? And don't get me started on our literary tradition either. If "the white majority" won't read, that's their loss. | ||
| Randy Adams Unregistered guest |
To be fair, I was the originator of the comments about the lack of culture in the U.S. I didn't say "lack of culture," however. I merely commented on what I think is inarguable: compared to older places like Europe and many east Asian countries, the U.S. has a relatively shallow cultural development. There is no substitute for time and we haven't had it yet. I will reiterate, I was not using "culture" in the narrow art sense. Now, going back to the idea of the GoBees playing in the U.S., I'd love to see them at the Hollywood Bowl now that the sound has been sorted out at that venue. It would undoubtedly suit Robert's taste for the tacky grandiose. But, unless all the GoBees fans in the U.S. agreed to fly to LA to see the show, I don't suppose that'll ever happen. But I'll settle for a nice CD of the Barbican show. This is my zillionth hint to their management. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Yes Alfred, I know that you are a critic. I have no idea who you are, but it was very obvious from your robust defence that you are a critic. I'm glad that neither you nor any other male critic you know has ever bigged up an artist because of hype. I must look out for you work. Maybe you can answer this question for me: If Sleater Kinney's popularity with male critics "has nothing whatsoever to do with their sex", then how come every single article I have ever seen on them makes such a big deal of their sex and sexual preference? This is a genuine question, I'm not trying to be sarcastic (well, maybe a little) and I would appreciate your untainted response. Randy, and the other Americans on this board, please get over your cultural cringe. The US has contributed more than any other nation to modern, popular culture as we know it. Without American films and music life would be infinitely less interesting. And the Red Sox winning the World Series - and ending the curse of the Bambino - was a great cultural as well as sporting thrill for me as a former Beantown resident. | ||
| Alfred Unregistered guest |
Insofar as the band would sound different if they had a bass player, were all men, and straight, then, yes, sexuality and gender are indispensable components. However, the experience of listening to SK has little or nothing to do with their sexuality or knowing their biography. You're right: most journalists will allude to one or both; but the best critics will not. Greil Marcus or Robert Christgau don't (at least lately. I wouldn't be surprised if xgau mentioned it back in '96). I'm glad you mentioned the Sox victory. Wasn't that something? Sports are too rarely discussed on the board. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Alfred! Common ground! I am very pleased! Maybe now you can forgive me for my a-little-too-off-the-cuff remarks. I did mention sport on this site before - my football team in Dublin and their European Cup run - but the response was poor. | ||
| Peter Collins Unregistered guest |
Which team Padraig? I must have missed that post. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Shelbourne, Peter. They knocked out Hajduk Split of Croatia and drew at home to both Deportivo La Coruna and Nantes. They also knocked out a Rekyavik team. All good for the co-efficient which Shelbourne, who won the league that ended in November, will benefit from next summer. | ||
| Peter Collins Unregistered guest |
Ah, I remember that. I remember, I'm afraid, hoping for Hadjuk to go through so Chelsea would draw them, because I have friends in Croatia I could have stayed with. Damn Shelbourne to hell! | ||
| Cassiel Unregistered guest |
How to kill a sport post stone dead: mention cricket. But here goes: England will beat Australia and win the Ashes this coming summer for the first team in nearly 20 years. McGrath, Warne, Gilchrist and all those other humourless, blow-dried bufffons will be humbled at last and I will weep like a child with joy. Michael Vaughan, Flintoff et all will be knighted and the sporting 'cringe' we Brits have towards the Aussies will finally be reversed!! Now, where did I put those pills....? | ||
| Peter Collins Unregistered guest |
Have you checked the latest score in South Africa?!? Actually, we have a chance in the Ashes, but not a great one. I think Vaughan's lack of form is extremely worrying, plus Harmison's lack of wickets. | ||
| peter Unregistered guest |
I like the 2nd audio clip on this page: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/test_match_special/3097549.stm | ||
| Peter Collins Unregistered guest |
Anyway, Cassiel, my attitude to the Aussies and sport is this - they can never be regarded a truly top sporting nation until they qualify for football World Cups on a regular basis, like England. The sports they excel in are hardly world sports are they? And we have the best bog snorklers in the world. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
My favourite moment in every World or European Cup is watching England go out on penalties. It's not that I have inherent dislike of England (a lot of my favourite things - football, the language, The Jam, my brother-in-law, The Guardian, Uncut - are English); it's just that you have such an arrogance that you will win each time. You genuinely believe that you not only can but WILL win the next World/European Cup. And you are always wrong. It is nice to always see arrogance punctured by the reality of another skyed penalty. England have many very talented players, but they never function as a proper team because they are pampered superstars with not enough pride in wearing three lions on their shirt. By the way, I hope you do win the Ashes as I am so sick of hearing about how Australia is No 1 at cricket. Who cares! Cricket is played in about 10 countries in the world. They love swimming and tennis here for the same reason - they are good at them. Australians are excellent at all the most boring sports in the world... but they did beat you in football last year! And then lost to Ireland! | ||
| Cassiel Unregistered guest |
Padraig, I don't know who these people are who think we can and will every major football tournament. Most of my fellow sport-loving countrymen, if not all of them, are incredibly fatalistic when it comes to sport, football especially. We never think England will win: though we are always filled with hope. There is a difference; hoping does not make us arrogant. I fear many people in places with a historical antipathy towards us, for good reason, confuse the attitude of some of our downmarket, antediluvian press – whipping up patriotic fervour, acting as if we are going to win the tournament when we stuff Azerbaijan – with that of the vast majority, who simply want the the team to do well, but know that will be battle bravely, valiantly, but eventually lose on penalties. I am always puzzled when the 'English' are labelled as arrogant. I have not met a more deprecating bunch of people. To be honest, you could argue one of our more debilitating characteristics is a lack of self-belief. I would love England to win the Ashes for similar reasons to you, Padraig. Funny how we get pelted for being arrogant, when none of footballers, cricketers, runners, bog snorkellers, can match the likes of Warne and McGrath when it comes to smugness, gracelessness and overweening self-regard. They are a great, great team, but I think every non-Australian (and, I dare say, a few Aussies. Perhaps Robert and Grant: I know they like their cricket.) would want to see them stuffed. They remind of the German football team of the late 80s/early 90s (they kept stuffing us too). But, like you Peter, with Vaughan and Harmison misfiring at the time of writing, the Gob's probably have more chance of topping the Billboard chart. | ||
| Peter Collins Unregistered guest |
Cassiel's answered you perfectly, Padraig. You've fallen into the trap of confusing the media with the ordinary person in the street. Quite apart from being fatalistic about England's chances in football and almost every other sport, many of the people I know would prefer their club side to do well than the national team - that's my position too, though I have been known to attend the odd England match. I tend to agree with you about the team being full of self-regarding, overpaid ****s. As for Aussie cricket, I'm told by some Australian friends that the team is respected but not necessarily loved for their perceived arrogance. That may or may not be the case, but I think it shows that a country's relationship with its sporting teams is not always black and white. Interestingly, my late father in law, the Kilkenny man, who came to England in his teens in the 50s, always wanted England to win, unless they were playing Ireland. Fair enough. Conversely, I have a lot of Scottish blood in me, but the current struggles of the sweaties' national team always brings me great amusement. Complicated, these allegiances. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 24 Registered: 08-2004 |
Very true, the worst thing about the English tabloids is, the way they hype the team as world beaters, then in the month before the tournament they always report a potentially damaging scandal. What exactly are they trying to achieve? This has been a policy used before every major tournament we've qualified for since at least 1990, mind boggling. As For cricket, England winning the Ashes would mean little to the majority of the public here, like rugby it's still the domain of the upper classes. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Unregistered guest |
Cassiel, Peter and Jerry: I apologise for my intemperence. You're right. I was basing much of my theory on your lovely tabloids, and Sky News also. But the 2% (or whatever it is) of your travelling fans intent on causing trouble always succeed and always get the headlines. When your "boys" have been fighting, pissing in public and singing "If it wasn't for the English you'd be German", it's hard to feel any sympathy when Beckham or whoever bottles it again. It still sticks in my craw that after the Heysel disaster in 1985 (I was 18 at the time), The Sun's greatest concern was that "our boys" were not getting an afternoon cup of tea in prison in Belgium. What happened and the revolting jingoism that followed changed my relationship with Liverpool FC irrevocably. I went from being a fanatical supporter to very near not giving a damn almost overnight. I began following Liverpool again after they played my Dublin team, Shelbourne in January 1993, just after I'd returned from my first period in Australia. Actually, I went to that match to support Liverpool and left as a Shelbourne supporter! I abhor it when Irish people wish England to lose every time, just because they are England. The same geniuses are invariably wearing a Manchester United jersey and have never been to see a domestic Irish football match. I have supported England, quietly I admit, in bars in both Dublin and Glasgow with an English mate from university. However, in late 2003 I took great pleasure in shouting vociferously for Samoa against England during the rugby world cup in a pub in Manly (Sydney). My father, who was visiting at the time, asked me to be quiet when four English guys started singing "No-one likes us, we don't care" and looking in our direction. I just thought, they are 18 years old, they look like posh public school (known as private school in the reast of the world) wankers and they are all wearing Johnny Wilkinson jerseys; how hard could they be? And they were singing Millwall's song, which was utterly pathetic. I did not stop shouting for Samoa; the Johnnies minded their manners. It's only a game. | ||
| Peter Collins Unregistered guest |
And I admit to having been spat at by Scotland fans for being English at an England v Scotland game in the mid-80s. They're everywhere - just that England have a few more idiots than most. | ||
| Noel W Unregistered guest |
I too am Irish, am a major GBs fan and also a Liverpool fan. It strikes me that there are pathetic people and opinions everywhere regardless of nationality or location, its seems to be related to ignorance fo the self righteous variety: Liverpool have fine fans for the most part, and I think in recent times most Irish people have a soft spot for England. I remember in the last European championships (last summer) most of the Irish people I know were supporting England. I also see a decideldy more positive take on all things Irish in the British media, and this is a difference from the patronism and racist Irish jokes of the 80s and before. Thats my tuppence! | ||
| fsh Unregistered guest |
Irish emmigrants' patriotism is based on a myth perpetrated by their imagination. It comes into being when their memory of why they left the country in the first place lapses. "The waste, memory wastes". | ||
| Noel W Unregistered guest |
That is true if a bit harshly put. I had lived in the US for periods over the nineties and recenlty had a conversation here in Ireland with an Italian long time Girlfriend of a friend and been living here for nearly ten years. We both felt that italian-americans and Irish-americans were far far removed philosophically and culturally (as well as geograhpically) from contemporary Italy and Ireland respectively. | ||
| John Flood Member Username: Floodjo Post Number: 18 Registered: 05-2005 |
This thread is worthty of revival - great comments in there. I just read through it now for the first time. England and football. I will never, ever forget Brian Clough and that Polish "clown" Tomaszewski who cost England their world cup place all those years ago (1974 world cup). As many of you have pointed out, the papers (and TV commentators) are responsibile - sore losers too unlike the vast majority of English fans I know and watch football with. Mind you, Ireland is not immune to this kind of thing either - things got a little out of hand with the rugger this year and with the football team now and then. While I'm ranting...I hate when Hot Press (Ireland's only half decent music paper) starts calling Oasis (and other British bands) Irish just 'cause the two boys have roots there but they themselves are about as Irish as spaghetti carabonara! My son is Swiss born & bred and I don't expect him to swear allegiance to Irleand someday - there's not a chance in hell of him ever seeing or understanding Ireland the way I do. Whew that went on a bit... |