| Author | Message | ||
     JohnD |
Its a state of mind as one reviewer put it and for me it is still the GBs finest hour. A great collection of songs that contains grant and roberts best body of songs -not individual songs but as a body of unified work it stands above all the other albums. Love gos on a great open -amanda browns finest hours, quiet heart -the song Lindy wants played at her funeral from a recent post on this message board. I feel they have never bettered the overall unity in this record. All ten songs are of an equally high standard, robert has never surpassed his batch in my opinion -and dive for your memory is the greatest closing song ,clouds a brill piece ,I'm Alright a work of genius, Grants stuff already mentioned on top of that the short and sweet devils eye, the majestic streets of your town etc etc my favourite GBS album and in my opinion their best! | ||
| gabor |
The ten tracks on 16 LL is unquestionable their greatest collection of songs, but the album itself is a bit overproduced, sometimes too smooth. Of course, It's still one of the Great R'R Albums ever - though I prefer the "french" demo version... | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
It's hard to deny that by most every standard, this is their best album of songs. Can anyone describe any criteria on which it stacks up as 2'nd best? (apart from the Art Work, which I think is a little bland, but not in a bad way). I can't understand critisms of over production and I've never known anyone to be heard saying "Wow, they just put to much effort into making this" whist listening. The production is sophisticated and detailed, without ever concealing the simple nature of the melodies and fine instrumentation. The lyrical content could hardly be more pleasing and the album's theme and mood is firmly held from the opening moment until the very last note. Consistently good throughout and very difficult to fault on any basis. All the other GBs albums only became 2'nd best when they released 16LL. | ||
| ubuweb149 |
I dont believe that 16LL is a true reflection of their "trademark" sound. Sure the songs are of the highest order but a real departure fron their quirky early recordings, I feel at least. 16LL was a commercial success in Australia, something that they never really wanted. Robert Forster has stated that "all that they ever wanted to do was to make a record that appealed about 20 groovy people and that the would feel happy with that." The era that produced "Before Hollywood", "Spring Hill Fair" (their unheralded masterpiece in my opinion), and "Liberty Belle" has been their finest. | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
I agree. It isn't a true reflection of their "trademark" sound and had only just made another posting to that effect. (I think SHF is the most representitive example of their lyrical style and sound). But I still can't see any good reason for not believing that 16LL isn't their best. Convince me please. Where did they go wrong? | ||
| david nichols |
The 'twenty groovy people' was surely a joke. Would have to be seen in context. Like everything. | ||
| Gareth |
I think it's their best on a number of levels. Best collection of songs, best production, best balance of tracks from both Robert and Grant, best ever opener etc etc etc. I think the stuff about 'trademark sound' is a red herring. What matters is what's on the record and how it sounds, not how it fits in with the band's image/persona/ideals etc. How do you know that all the earlier records weren't representative at all and 16LL was where they were trying to get to all along? | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker |
Liberty Belle will always be my personal favorite (for reasons I've rambled on and on about in the Liberty Belle thread), but I can understand why 16LL is held in such high esteem. Personally, I do think it's a just a wee bit too glossy, but that ultimately the sterile sheen doesn't detract, but actually enhances the melodies and squeaky clean, mellifluous acoustic textures. Does that make sense? Probably not. Basically it's a beautiful album, both texturally and melodically, and the slickness that would usually irk me doesn't really do that here. I will say, however, the slickness aspect that does bother me is that the drums on some of the songs are clearly drum machines, like on Quiet Heart and probably You Can't Say No Forever. Still, it doesn't ruin my day or anything, but it would've been nice to have real drums played by Lindy on those numbers. I seem to recall reading in Nichols' book that Lindy was replaced by drum machines on a few songs, since she missed a number of sessions due to her father's death. I do agree that 16LL contains some of their very best songs, like Streets of Your Town, You Can't Say No Forever, Love Goes On, I'm Alright, and Love is a Sign. Sometimes Quiet Heart bothers me because it sounds uncomfortably similar to Joshua Tree-era U2. That, and I'm kind of sick of Was There Anything I Could Do? But I can still listen to those songs, and I agree that overall 16LL is an incredibly strong and cohesive album. I've talked about this before in other threads, but John Wilsteed's contributions to the album were hugely significant, and further underscore my theory that the Go-Betweens rely heavily on (and are influenced greatly by) outside input (the way Liberty Belle benefits from Dean B. Speedwell's arrangements, for example). Of course, Wilsteed did a lot of the shimmery, lead acoustic guitar melodies that really helps to define the sound of the record, as well as harness the melodic structure of many of the songs. It's a very subjective, personal thing, but 16LL will never quite equal Liberty Belle for me, but it comes pretty damn close . | ||
| david nichols |
I think that Lindy was not replaced by drum machines on many songs on 16LL because she wasn't at the sessions, but because that was the production ethos of the time. If she typifies it as being 'because' her father died during the sessions, I imagine it's because she felt she wasn't there to argue particular cases re: particular songs, or to program the drums herself. Lindy did embrace drum machine culture to a degree, and used it (she's made that clear on postings here) probably more than most other drummers of her generation/background/philosophy. Something that Alsy McDonald once said to me once the Triffids started using drum machines on their records (he was also a programming drummer I think) was that people could never really tell which were the programmed and which were the real drums - and often got the two confused. I am pretty sure for instance that the drums on 'Wide Open Road' were (please excuse the inverted commas - it's a habit) 'real'. Programmed drums were pretty endemic by the mid-80s. I wonder if anyone still uses them to stand in for analog? | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
The drums on You Can't Say No Forever are a machine! I'm shocked. Very precise I know, but Lindy was a perfectionist. Are you sure? | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker |
Not sure exactly what songs had drum machines, I'm only going on the few songs where the drums sound mechanical to me. Definitely Quiet Heart, though. As for the others, perhaps Lindy could enlighten us? David, to clarify, I think what Lindy said was that she just "wasn't there" for the sessions, meaning that she was distracted by her father's condition at the time so she was unable to fully invest herself emotionally. But, I do seem to recall reading that she simply missed some sessions as well. But I must ask, David, where did you read that Lindy was pro-drum machine? I ask because I'm having trouble figuring out her attitude towards them during the 80s. I mean, there was the recent thread that turned into a Microdisney-fest for a while, in which Lindy recounted loaning her rhythm generator to Microdisney, of which she said, "They borrowed my rhythm arranger, I found it in Eastbourne Studios, during "Before Hollywood", it's still sitting in my drum room. Not on any Gobs records. I got it back years later. It was the early beat machine, this one from the sixties, not programmeable just plays jazz beat, disco beat etc, the sounds are wonderful and they used it in some demo recordings.." But then, correct me if I'm wrong, I recall reading about there being tension between Lindy and John Brand during the making of Spring Hill Fair over his wanting to use drum machines. I guess my question is, would Lindy have *preferred* to actually play (rather than program) the drums on those records? I just don't remember reading anything where she said she was gung-ho about usuing drum machines with the Go-Betweens. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker |
And one more thing: I've never, ever heard Cleopatra Wong. Did she use drum machines on that stuff? | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker |
Ah, sorry, one more bit on the subject of drum machines: throughout the mid to late 80s, you also had the phenomenon of gated drums, and midi-triggers, where the drums would be sent through midi effects to completely change their sound to where they would sound totally synthetic. So, you would effectively make your human drummer sound kind of like a drum machine. The Pixies did this, particularly with albums like Bossanova and Trompe le Monde, just to give you a reference point. Also, I'm pretty sure some of the drums on the Smiths' Queen is Dead and Strangeways were either sent through midi-triggers or heavily gated/effected. So, us recording/engineering geeks and musicians would sit there endlessly debating whether the drums were "real but heavily effected," midi-triggered, or simply programmed on a drum machine. | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
I'll ask. It's never come up before. I doubt that a machine was ever used on the Cleopatra Wong stuff since it was all about the AB and Lindy interplay. | ||
| Pete Azzopardi |
I've got that first Cleopatra Wong Ep, "Egg", and it all sounds pretty artificial to me. The sleeve notes actually credit Lindy for "drums, drum programmes and percussion." Whether she plays them in unison or not is another question. My view on 16LL is that, because it sounds like less of a band record than any other, it sort of stands apart from the others too. Nevertheless, it stands alone well and is the only true 'romantic' album I can think of that isn't sickening or twee. Anyone got some other examples? | ||
| david nichols |
My take on Lindy and drum machines, to expand on the above, is that she initially resisted them; saw them as a way for producers to take away from the human elements in drumming; eventually made a mature compromise that since there was no getting rid of the drum machine/programmed drums she would gain control of that area, and learnt how to do it; by the late 80s was totally sold on them, at least as far as 'this is what you do when you're making pop music' is concerned. Hence the large amount of drum machines etc on Cleopatra Wong records. Of course you can treat live drums to sound mechanised, but I think the main point of drum machines in 80s recording was that they made things cheaper and easier if you spent time programming the drums before you started recording, you didn't need to spend time experimenting with the recording. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker |
Yeah, it was cheaper (something *any* record label would've been concerned with, cutting corners, you know - I remember hearing drummers back then fearing that they were literally being squeezed out of pop music, like the factory worker being replaced by a robot), but it also just fit in with production trends in the mid to late 80s which dictated studio sterile sheen over anything organic. That's why most of the records from that time that did have a human playing drums, filtered them through gated reverb to make them sound slick and polished. The funny thing about drum machines and the Go-Betweens is that the whole concept just seems to run contrary to what the band was all about. But I guess one has to remember the context of the late 80s, as well as the inevitable pressures from record labels who were pushing for a hit at any cost. Any other guesses on which 16LL songs feature drum machines? Or Spring Hill Fair, for that matter? For the latter, I'm guessing Bachelor Kisses and Slow Slow Music. | ||
| fsh |
Mentioned this before but when I first heard 'Streets of your..' on the radio, I thought it was Prefab Sprout and I was a GB's fan at the time. For my money 'You can't say no forever' is very Smiths apart obviously from the vocal. | ||
| Michael B. |
I have a special place heart for 16LL, as it's the first Go-Betweens I heard on the radio in the Fall of 1988. I think that the quality of the songs are the strongest from top to bottom. I miss the drums though. I like SHF the most for the overall sound. 16LL for the balance of quality songs from Robert and Grant. BH for the GM songs, LB for the RF songs, Tallulah for the pop songs and intro of AB to the band. They are all great in my book. Another romantic album, well it might be more nostalgic than romantic, that I like that came out the very same time as 16LL is Everything But The Girl's "Idlewild". | ||
| Matt Tremmel |
Michael, Is Idlewild good too? My favorite is Amplified Heart. I've bought or heard a few others but none compare even remotely to their last masterpiece (except the live - cover one - acoustic). | ||
| Michael B. |
Idlewild is my favorite, but Amplified Heart is my close second. The lyrics are just as strong. The drop off from Idlewild to the next one, The Language of Life, was something I didn't expect. I was glad when the returned to form on AH. I didn't care to the drum and bass sound of the albums after AH though. EBTG is on sabatical these days, as Tracy is busy being a full time mom. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker |
Amplified Heart was quite a return to form, wasn't it. I remember being skeptical when I first heard it, since at that point EBTG had come to epitomize bland Doctor's office/Viagara commercial muzak. But when I gave it a listen, I was positively floored. Right from the first song, the brilliant Rollercoaster, I knew the old spark had been rejuvenated. Personally, my favorites are still the first album (in both versions - the eponymous US Debut, and Eden, the UK version) and Love Not Money. I prefer the more organic, jazzier stuff. I don't think they've ever topped songs like Native Land or Each and Every One. I like some of the Idlewild stuff too, but it does make me feel a bit like a yuppie when listening to it. Anyone like the pre-EBTG Ben Watt stuff? His voice is a bit much at times, but the music and the moods it conjures up is gorgeous. | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
Jeff: Lindy wrote that she would like to reply to this group personally, reguarding the use of drum machine, and that it is likely to be a long reply. She's been very busy but thinks she will get the time to write it shortly. We all look forward to reading it. | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
..I should have added; She's also doing a bit of preparatory rolling around on the carpet in anticipation of the release of the rarity bonus CDs. You never can start early enough on these things.  | ||
| Dave |
So when is Lindy going to give us the low down on her participation and the use of the dreaded drum machines in question. I happen to think even if they where used extensively on 16LL they sound good and make the songs interesting eg quiet heart seems to have a great mixture of drum machine and real drums in the chorus of the song. I await Lindys reply on this -and how the drum machines where used on 16LL and for that matter also on SHF if my memory serves me correctly -it sounds like drum machines where used on that album also by just listening to the record and maybe on Cut it Out on Tallulah also - that song sounds like treated drums or in fact a drum machine being used -look forward to Lindys post on this matter- once the red carpet has been laid for the final three old albums being released. Looking forward to that particularly for the wealth of B sides from the period that are top class. s | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker |
Yeah, me too! Would love to know more about Lindy's thoughts on using drum machines, as well as what songs they were used on, not just 16LL, but SHF and Tallulah as well. | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
She only wrote to me yesterday to say that she hadn't had the time and that the reply might be long. I get the impression that it's a subject that she cares about and wants to do it the appropriate amount of justice. After it's done, we should have the full history. Consider that without her collaboration we could have speculated on this subject for years and then only come to some sort of group conscences on the subject that resembled an opinion rendered by committee. It's worth the wait! | ||
| Cassiel |
For a second there, this thread was in danger of being interesting. Go-Betweens fans, their biographer perhaps foremost, are strangely obsessed with drums and drumming. Discuss. | ||
| david nichols |
I'm strangely obsessed with drums and drumming because (1) I play the drums, (2) I think Lindy M. is a great drummer, (3) I firmly believe that she has been singled out for criticism as a drummer in a way that no other drummer I can think of has been largely because she is an outspoken feminist (and also just generally threatening to a lot of people because she is outspoken on many other issues as well). That's probably too simplified a response. | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
I just like Lindy and enjoy reading whatever it is she has for us. I wish Rob and John would write more but none of them will unless we extend a warm friendship to each of them. What's strange about it? | ||
| Pete Azzopardi |
I love Lindy's drumming, especially on the first two albums. I'm primarily a guitarist who was first inspired to pick up drum stricks after hearing "Before Hollywood". Is there any better album to air drum to? I once joined a band as a drummer and I soon realised that all my drum parts were modelled on either 'Cattle and Cane' or 'Two steps, step out'. That band did not last too long. | ||
| willsteed |
well she was the first drummer i'd ever really written songs with and it was a very exciting experience - when she left to join the boys i was furious and spent some years playing with machines - still do | ||
| lindymorrison |
I first came up against the drum machine on Spring Hill Fair. John Brand produced that album as well as Before Hollywood but he and the record company Sire had decided this was the one that would make all of us, the whole shebang, STARS. Consequently John proved an arse hole on this recording. On some tracks he just said the drums were not good enough. He convinced Grant of the same. Grant always pushed for the most commercial sounds. So they introduced me to the drum machine. I hated the idea but only a few tracks were done this way and I ended up learning heaps. That was worthwhile, I learned to program my own simple playing into the machine. Of course it meant losing complex time because I was learning on the job so I kept it simple, mostly 2 bar patterns but all in multiples of four, eg a chorus had to be 8 or 16 bars. A bar had to be four four of course. I still have and use that old drum machine a Roland TR505. If I was patient and returned to the album. I would find the tracks so I could tell you. But I can’t remember which ones from memory. But I remember Part Company was programmed and with that and all subsequent programming I played cymbals, ride, high hats and crashes on top, that way you get something of yourself in, like the instrument sound and that wayward personal feel the producers hated in the eighties. The drum machine didn’t raise its head again till we rerecorded Bachelor Kisses. I have already published a story in an academic journal on this. Basically they recorded my track then invited the boys into the studio to listen. During the playback they alternated my playing with their (unbeknownst to me) prerecorded drum machine part, the same as mine. So they alternated my part, drum machine during playback. I sounded all over the place. I ended up in the toilet ill. Well actually crying. I know pathetic really. I would never be unprofessional these days. There were no more drum machines till I met the producer from hell, Mark Wallace (in what you call 16 LL), who in collaboration with John Wilsteed broke my spirit and heart. But then I was hardly on top of it at that stage so I'll take half the blame. Not all of that album is machine but this I will say…... I programmed those tracks, (I forget which but you can hear it), as the parts I would play, which is the saving grace at least, and why they still sound like me. Enough for now but my god I could go on forever. And as usual I'll sign off with I'll never visit this site again!!!!!By the way the Go Betweens manager Bob Johnson phoned me from London to tell me it was a bit sad I kept coming to this site. Hi Bob! | ||
| lindymorrison |
ok and now I've read all the postings above mine. I need to go through them all but you are probably right about other tracks on other albums. For instance we were introduced to Mark Wallace when he remixed You tell me and some others probably from Tallulah. He did something amazing on that track. Put all instruments through a machine that straightened them out. Yep even guitars. Quiet Heart is drum machine floor toms and kick. Wilsteed did all lead on that whole album so whoever talks about outside input is correct, what about the brilliant Spainish guitar on Tallulah ( Someone Else's Wife is fantastic)and Richard Preston was wonderful, the producer. And Liberty Belle is my favourite after that and Before Hollywood. Cleopatra Wong I played those electronic drums you quantize later, what were they called maybe D Drums, but Thank you the best track I totally programmed, percussion as well, great fun. Apart from the tops, that is the cymbals. Oh dear my memory is appalling but this all helps so thanks and I'll never visit etc......... | ||
| fsh |
Lindy wrote "By the way the Go Betweens manager Bob Johnson phoned me from London to tell me it was a bit sad I kept coming to this site. Hi Bob!" I was kind of thinking that the boys wouldn't be over-enamoured by your presence on the site, a little begrudging I think but not entirely unexpected. | ||
| Mark Ilsley |
It isn't sad at all, Lindy. You still have fans. Nor is it sad that you care enough about them to return here and answer our questions about the original GBs. If Bob Johnson thinks that I am sad for still admiring you, then I have a special use for a red hot poker and his arse. Does he also think that Robert Vickers is sad? What about Willsteed, is he sad too? Thank you for your reply. I was berating myself for putting you under so much pressure to make it, something I'll never do again. Sorry for bringing up so many painfull memories. You could not have risen higher in my esteem and I think that this is true for many others reading this. Your courage is unsurpassed. | ||
| Cichli Suite |
Lindy, It is so great to have you drop in to chat like this. I've enjoyed your drumming style since the solo on "eight pictures ". As much as I like the new GoBees records, I miss the unusual drumming found on the earlier records. I was going to say something rude about Bob Johnson, but I think Mark's comments suffice for all of us. Cichli Suite | ||
| Randy Adams |
Lindy's story validates my negative attitude toward record companies. And, yes, the mainstream 80s aesthetic was pretty plastic. If the GoBs had become big stars, their bank accounts would be in much better shape, but would the music have been as good? I guess this belongs on the "Fear of Success" thread. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker |
I guess I'm being kinda redundant at this point, but I wholeheartedly agree with the above three posts. I'm not 100% sure how Mr. Johnson's comment is meant to be taken, but Lindy, I don't find your presence on this message board even remotely sad. Obviously, your contributions make this place infinitely more interesting. I mean, why would any of us adoring fans *not* want to hear *your* take on this stuff? Not to mention, it's nice to have a female presence amid this apparent sausage fest. Please don't let the above be your last post here! Now, if Mark would let me have a turn with Bob and that red hot poker... ;) At any rate, thanks so much for enlightening us on the whole drum machine thing. I can see how that must've been hugely frustrating, initially. I guess with hindsight it seems downright criminal. Speaking as a musican and an aspiring recording engineer, it just seems blasphemous and myopic to replace the person who drummed on Cattle and Cane and Unkind and Unwise, etc.. with a drum machine, even if only for a handful of tracks. I mean, you were part of a dying breed of drummers in the 80s who still possessed their own unique, individual style. And we all know that really helped Grant and Robert's songwriting stand out. But it was the 80s, so there you have it. | ||
| Cassiel |
Well, if Bob Johnson knows you're on here, Lindy, then he must be on here too, which makes him incredibly sad considering he should be off buttering egos and licking arses like all good managers do! C'mon Bob, ya big Jessie, make yourself known. Or are you hiding behind some silly name like, er, me? | ||
| JohnD |
It good to get Lindy's input thanks for adding to this thread. It is great to get you perspective on these events. It also adds a welcome aside to the offical history of the band and to the book published by Dave Nicholls recently. |