| Author | Message | ||
     Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 3 Registered: 05-2005 |
I received a copy of the LP yesterday, and it is Good News. The sound is absolutely gorgeous... no over-compression or clipping. A totally different animal. Warm, dynamic and open. Thank you, Yep Roc, thank you... There is no doubt whatsoever that the vinyl was cut from a different master than the CD releases (I have both the domestic (US) Yep Roc and the EMI Australia / Lo-Max editions, and except for subtle but insignificant timing differences in the track lead-in times, those two editions are sonically identical). Until I received the vinyl, I had pretty much been resigned to enjoying the music (CD) as it is. Aside from opinions on whether or not the CD mastering could be regarded as flawed, I had accepted the idea that it sounded exactly the way it was intended to. Now, this presents a different take on things. The ultimate confirmation of my conclusion was analyzing the audio from the CD and from the vinyl, proving what my ears indicated. Below is a link to a descriptive web page that explains the measurements (warning, it does get a bit technical). Now, please don’t go there if a technical analysis of the recording will hamper enjoyment of the CD, or otherwise prove disturbing. ;) http://www.pbase.com/rsub8/oa_rec_measurements This might be an alternative for folks that object to the mastering used on the CD, that have access to a vinyl playback system. Joy, oh joy. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 17 Registered: 04-2005 |
Wow, that's great news, Rob. Did you buy the vinyl copy directly from Yep Roc's website? I just want to make sure I'm getting the same thing you did if I order it. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 10 Registered: 05-2005 |
guess this proves that buyers of the CD have been sold shoddy goods! I wonder how Trading Standards would feel about this? Lo-Max, think its time you said something on this. | ||
| Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 4 Registered: 05-2005 |
I got it from tonevendor.com in sacramento, they only had one copy in stock.  Real quick service, though, and had some sort of flowers hand-drawn on the white exterior of the carton and packaging. A nice thing to see. Note: hey, I'm not trying to get Lo-Max or anyone in trouble here. Just sharing what I found, that's all... - | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 11 Registered: 05-2005 |
thanks for sharing Rob - i have emailed Lo-Max (again) to see what their stance on this is. I expect an answer this time. | ||
| R Heath Member Username: Dreamlifeof Post Number: 2 Registered: 05-2005 |
Wow. Well this seems to prove what most of us have been saying. Unless, of course, the record companies claim that it is the CD, not the vinyl, which more accurately reflects the way the album should sound. (As if!) | ||
| Pherron Member Username: Pherron Post Number: 10 Registered: 09-2004 |
Well I'm astonished at just how shoddy the CD mastering looks. I'm not a great expert but hard limiting to boost the overall volume density shouldn't result in clipping to that extent, surely? That's just shoddy workmanship by the mastering engineer. | ||
| Justin Lane Member Username: Dusty Post Number: 5 Registered: 05-2005 |
That's good news regarding the vinyl version. Before I shell out for a copy of the record, can anyone confirm that the UK/European vinyl is mastered well, like the Yep Roc release. | ||
| Kurt Stephan Member Username: Slothbert Post Number: 18 Registered: 04-2005 |
I emailed Yep Roc asking about the vinyl copy of the album, mentioning that I heard it doesn't suffer from the distortion of the CD. I got a prompt and polite reply, but it just repeats the party line from the band's management that we've heard before. >>Thanks for your inquiry. Yes, we have heard from some of the Go-Betweens fans about the sound issue you describe. We have contacted the band's management about this issue and they have told us that the band, producer and the mastering engineer were all present at the mastering and all approved the master we received for reproduction. With that said the LP was produced from the same master as the CD. It's kind of strange if people are claiming the LP is superior to the CD. We contacted the band's management about this issue again today. If a solution becomes available I will definitely let you know. << | ||
| R Heath Member Username: Dreamlifeof Post Number: 3 Registered: 05-2005 |
The sheer sales success of the album may encourage the powers-that-be to dismiss all of us here as a gang of trainspotters - a kind of 'well the album must be fine otherwise it wouldn't have done so well' sort of thing. But if the album is selling well, it's clearly *despite* not *because of* the way it was mastered. What Yep Roc is saying, about all the personnel being present at the mastering, may be technically true - I can't say at precisely what stage in the process the fuck up occurred, all I can say is that it did. Maybe the mastering engineer snuck up the levels after everyone else went home? (Crossposted) | ||
| Eke Member Username: Ekewebb Post Number: 3 Registered: 05-2005 |
Dusty. Had a listen to the UK vinyl in Sister Ray this lunchtime. Unforunately it sounds just like the CD. | ||
| Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 5 Registered: 05-2005 |
I have done some extended, more critical listening comparisons between the CD and vinyl, and have more to report. I have to agree with Eke, particularly for those tracks having the “harder” sound - This Night’s For You, for example. Despite the quite visible waveform clipping on the CD, the hardness (or what also could be less charitably called distortion) simply trumps what’s contributed by the clipping. And I will say that on such tracks, the listening differences between vinyl and CD are subtle. If that sounds like a retraction of what I said earlier, then I must admit that it is. In other words, the distortion added by the clipping doesn’t affect the overall sound as much as it would if the hardness were absent. And taking that a step further, I suppose that “allowed” the mastering folks to push the levels of the CD to the extent that they did - because, again, the clipping didn’t detract from what already was an overall, relatively hard sound. Subjectively, to “make” the CD playback loudness the same as the vinyl (adjusting the vinyl levels so that peaks just tickle 0 dB), the CD level has to be reduced as much as 6 - 8 dB. If played back on a stereo, this definitely means having to reduce the volume level, compared to much other music CDs you might have. If you normally listen at loud levels, the added volume might be enough to cause clipping “downstream,” depending on your equipment. This will affect some sound systems to a greater extent than others. - | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 23 Registered: 02-2005 |
In response to my enquiry, Mark Wallis' production company pointed the accusing finger in the direction of the Mastering Engineer. | ||
| Adrian P Member Username: Adp Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2005 |
I'm confused, Rob! Are you saying that the vinyl is from the same master or differnt to the CD? And Eke: was that definitely a UK pressing that you listened to? I've only seen the German pressing on sale in London. Thanks in advance to you both. | ||
| Guy Ewald Member Username: Guy_ewald Post Number: 25 Registered: 02-2005 |
I finally got a response from YepRoc. They said they had received other complaints and forwarded them to the band/management. They did not claim that the band/management had confirmed that the master was exactly what the artist and producer intended... it didn't sound like they'd heard anything back from GoBe land. I can believe that - YepRoc was well down the chain of licensing arrangements by the band. YepRoc did caution me that the vinyl version was mastered from the same glass master as the CD's and that I shouldn't expect any difference in sonic quality. | ||
| Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 6 Registered: 05-2005 |
Yes, the vinyl, in fact, after further investigation, has many of the same "problems." I have added the following to the web page I created: "The differences between the vinyl and CD may not be as large as they seem. There may be clipping, as well, in the vinyl recording, that was present in the digital master, that is masked by the vinyl production / playback process." Sorry to have to get technical again: I have to make some more calculations using the vinyl and CD waveforms, to test a hypothesis I have. But besides that, the waveforms of the CD and vinyl that I posted are accurate. However, the problem is centered on the fact that vinyl LPs having square-topped waveforms (as produced by digital clipping) are extremely rare (it is not a musical-sounding signal). It also is difficult to reproduce flat topped waveforms with analog (tape, vinyl) recording equipment. If the clipped digital master was used to make the vinyl stamper, there is no guarantee that the flat-topped waveforms will make it through the record cutting - record playback chain. So the clipping could indeed be in there, but altered by the production process (making the vinyl waveform look less crufty). I will have the answer in a few hours. I think that Yep Roc's statement that Guy (and Kurt) reported must get the benefit of the doubt. If that's the case, however, that might mean that the clipping was introduced at some point before the mastering stage. I will follow up on this further. - | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 76 Registered: 08-2004 |
Christ on a bike!!!!! Rob, that's like white noise in text form. | ||
| Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 7 Registered: 05-2005 |
Yes, looking at that, I have to agree it is rather obtuse.  Sorry. I just finished an Leq comparison of the different sources (and posted it). That is a simple "litmus test" type of measurement, that can convey a lot more information than trying to visually compare waveforms: It is looking more and more like the master source was the same for both vinyl and CD, like they say. There is several dB of treble boost on the CD version, but that could be explained in several ways (see the web page). That boost would also make the vinyl sound comparatively warmer (my original observation). http://www.pbase.com/rsub8/oa_rec_measurements One last test to do (the hypothesis I mentioned above): correct the vinyl waveform (with software DSP) for nonlinearity, see if the clipped waveform (as evidenced by the CD) re-emerges... - | ||
| Rob Robinson Member Username: Rsub8 Post Number: 8 Registered: 05-2005 |
I’ve been giving this matter a considerable amount of thought today, and I am going to concede and concur that Yep Roc’s explanation is accurate. The trap I fell into was looking at the waveform of the CD and expecting to see the same, flat-topped clipping on the vinyl. It wasn’t there (at least at first glance); ergo, different mastering job. It *was* there, of course - but just “wearing different clothes.”** Problem was, I’d never seen anything like this before on vinyl (digital clipping transferred to vinyl). And making matters worse, my first listening foray with the vinyl album was clouded - I’d just come off finishing a greuling, month-long crash project, and was tired - but elated, both for finishing it, and at seeing the record had come in the mail (and I think that elation does come across in my first post). **(Technically, the vinyl cutting / playback process high-pass filters the music; only a digital medium is capable of maintaining the DC information needed to preserve the flat tops of the clipping waveform. That filtering causes the flat tops to tilt. And sure enough, a close, detailed examination at places where clipping occured on the CD revealed corresponding smooth - but highly tilted - areas on the vinyl waveform - which were, in fact, the flat clipping tops.) I haven’t had the opportunity to make the confirming check that I mentioned earlier (high-pass filter the CD track and see if the waveform more closely matches the vinyl - in that the flat tops slant to match the smooth areas of the vinyl waveform). I’m reasonably sure that this test will confirm my suspicions. (And if anyone is interested, say so, and I will share those results.) On the positive side, this thread has actually accomplished a few things, and answered questions: (1) the vinyl and CD were produced from the same master (2) the sound of both of these are generally similar (3) that master has distortion that apparently is a result of hard digital clipping (4) representatives from the music companies involved communicated, albeit indirectly, with the forum, providing welcome clarification and feedback (5) communications were prompted mostly by issues raised here concerning mastering quality. Unanswered is: at what stage in the production process did the clipping creep in? I still do observe that the vinyl sounds warmer than the CD. This also is borne out by the same Leq measurement test that pretty much confirmed that the vinyl and CD share a mastering “heritage.” The CD treble boost causes, in comparison, the vinyl to have a warmer sound. Not having inside knowledge of the processes used in production of this particular record, I can only speculate as to the cause of the apparent treble enhancement. I also note a more extended frequency range (at the high end) on the vinyl - so more of the information recorded on the master did make it over to that medium. Unfortunately, the benefits (a more open, airy sound) of that aspect probably wouldn’t be noticeable on many playback setups or in casual listening. (I’d actually be very interested in discussing this further with someone involved in the production of this LP, if they would be willing to take the time.) Finally, I’d like to say I’m very deeply sorry about raising false hopes in the matter, knowing the importance that the recording quality of this particular album holds with many in the forum. I am even more sorry if some of you ordered or purchased the vinyl, anticipating a dramatically improved sound quality, based on my say-so. I’d humbly like to offer that I started addressing the situation by posting within 24 hours of my initial post on the subject (in fact, I had just begun discovering the problems with my earlier listening session / data interpretation when I noticed Eke’s post). But I am admitting that I have made a mistake, and think that is the best course to take. Rather than drag this out further, it’s probably best to put the matter of the vinyl vs. CD master source to rest. There was nothing wrong with the measurement data that I posted. The flaw lies in my faulty interpretation of the data, and my conclusions based on that interpretation. Rob Robinson | ||
| Eke Member Username: Ekewebb Post Number: 4 Registered: 05-2005 |
I didn't check what the pressing was to be honest, Adrian. I just assumed UK as I was in London. I'll have another look next time I'm in there and let you know. | ||
| John Flood Member Username: Floodjo Post Number: 8 Registered: 05-2005 |
Rob, great to read such an honest admission of your error. People so open about their own errors are all too rare these days. Now let's see something similar from the record company and we'll all be happy! I know that pressing a CD costs double digit pence not pounds! | ||
| Richard Lim Member Username: Re17 Post Number: 9 Registered: 05-2005 |
Just to note that the preview tracks of Oceans Apart on iTunes do suffer from distortion as well, proving that it's on the master. But don't the bonus tracks on the Here Comes A City EP sound great! Richard | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2004 |
okay, so out of sheer curiosity, i threw down the money for a copy of the vinyl (yep roc version, here in the US) and well, it does sound ever so slightly better. i a/b'd the two, playing them simultaneously, and to perhaps reiterate what Rob said up above, the vinyl is a lot quieter. normal volume on my stereo is about 3-4 (for kind of loud but not piss-off-the-neighbors blaringly loud), and the vinyl's volume level sits comfortably in that range. the cd, however, has to be turned down several notches, meaning that it is, obviously, significantly louder. other differences may have more to do with the basic differences in the natures of the two mediums. as i think rob was conveying up above, the cd has increased high frequencies (more treble), where as the high end is much less hyped, and a lot more natural sounding on the vinyl. basically, the vinyl is less harsh in this regard. but, sadly, the distortion and the speaker blowing bass frequencies are still prevalent (i have to lower the bass frequencies on my stereo for both the cd and lp to prevent the bass from vibrating my apartment into rubble). and like the cd, 'this night's for you' still seems to sound the worst, displaying all these annoying characteristics in spades. the differences aren't significant enough to warrant everyone running out and buying the vinyl. but the vinyl still has the edge, enough so that for me, it's a bit more pleasant than listening to the cd. for me, the cd only sounds "listenable" (and i'm using that term loosely) when listening to it on the cheap little ear-phones of my discman, or through my computer at work. that way, it sounds about as crappy as everything else. but after all that, i'm still really loving this album. mountains of delray, lavender, this night's for you, born to a family, finding you, etc... are all making me incredibly happy, and these songs in particular are some of the best they've written in ages. i really can't wait to see 'em when they come to SF. | ||
| kevin Member Username: Kevin Post Number: 15 Registered: 05-2005 |
jeff, thats the whole point. possibly the best album of their career and somebody somewhere screwed the sound | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 74 Registered: 10-2004 |
believe me, i know. i'm just excited that the vinyl sounds a smidgeon better. |