| Author | Message | ||
     Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1979 Registered: 10-2004 |
Let's talk about how much we love, hate, or are ambivalent about David Bowie. My top 5 favorite Bowie albums, in order of preference: Low Scary Monsters Station to Station Heroes Man Who Sold the World Without Low, there may not have been a Joy Division as we know it. The first half strikes a tense balance between really good musicians playing quirky pop songs, and the art-damaged, heavily treated production. Nothing at the time really sounded quite like this. The instrumentals on the second half are some of the most beautiful music I have *ever* heard. Scary Monsters is insanely wonderful and solid, especially given that it appeared so late in Bowie's career. Station to Station revived Bowie's career in a big way and gave him a renewed sense of purpose. He was finally stepping into the future. I always felt Heroes was basically a half-baked album built around one incredibly great song (the title track). The other pop-oriented songs sound hollow and rushed to me. And the instrumentals, while good, don't reach the sweeping highs of the instrumentals on Low. On the whole, though, it's one of his better albums. Man Who Sold the World is basically Bowie doing metal and I love it. So dark and heavy! Out of the "Berlin Trilogy," Lodgers is the only album I've never warmed up to. I love "DJ" but just can't get into the rest of the album. Sounds like a rushed contract-obligation job to me. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1980 Registered: 10-2004 |
Oh, and as Kevin mentioned in the other thread, Station to Station is getting the deluxe treatment this September. And this isn't merely some remaster with a bonus disc of live or crappy demos. This is total wallet-engulfing insanity. Take a look at this link for details and photos of the deluxe and super editions: http://www.network54.com/Forum/8980/thre ad/1277992493/last-1277995226/Station+To +Station+-+September+20th+ I'm not obsessed enough to shell out for either (I have the LP and would be happy with just the RCA CD), but I'm sure some people will go nuts. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2388 Registered: 03-2005 |
Jeff, "The Width of a Circle" alone makes "MWSTW" a great album. If I'm not mistaken "MWSTW" was the album that taught me to like post-Ken Pitt Bowie. Mick Ronson was so far ahead of Spinal Tap with his send-up of gaudy metal guitar players. I always thought the "Ziggy Stardust" thing too precious and gimmicky. I don't begrudge him building stardom on the back of that but I don't want to hear it. Everybody trashes the Ken Pitt era music which I think is a huge mistake mostly stemming from the fact that most Bowie fans are not 60s music people and they just don't know how to process the earlier traditions it draws upon. For me, Bowie's Deram Records material is a much better alternative to Cat Stevens' loosely similar recordings for that label. Bowie was already much artier and edgier. "The London Boys" is a great low budget Jacques Brel/Scott Walker type take on the Mod era scene with a terrific homo subtext. He wrote about the mid-60s London scene as well as anyone with numbers like "Maid of Bond Street," "Gospel According to Tony Day" and "Join the Gang." Tony Visconti showed up toward the end of the Deram contract in time for the fabulous "Karma Man" and "Let Me Sleep Beside You" at which point you can hear the next phase coming in. For years I only listened to this era of Bowie, plus the even EARLIER mod rock band work like "You've Got a Habit of Leaving" and "And I Say to Myself." I still have the vinyl single and EP pressings of most of those early songs on British Decca, EMI and Pye. These are not original issues, mind you, but early reissues because CDs came out and before anybody saw fit to negotiate the record rights and pull them all together as Rhino did many years later. Virtually all of this stuff was great, mature, intelligent, emotionally ambiguous songs from the get-go. I've always adored the Bee Gees melodrama take-off of "Space Oddity" but found most of its accompanying album rather unfocused. (Remember I really like the Bee Gees' 60s prototypes also.) But until I heard MWSTW I couldn't be bothered with what I considered Bowie's popular era. I used to have the Mercury vinyl copy of "Man Who Sold the World" with the cartoon cover. That record was always a must have and it dates--for me--way back to when I still lived with my parents in Fresno. It was a great drug record, not that you'd know anything about that. I don't know if his reference to "est" in "All the Madmen" is a reference to the pop psychology bullshit Erhard Seminars Training but that's how I always took it and it certainly fits the gist of the song. I simply could not believe how brilliant a record it was and it just intensified my bitterness about what I perceived to be a "dumbing down" to sell records later. "Heroes" got my attention because the title track is a lovely Lou Reed/VU type thing and that was sure to reel me in and so it did. I had a copy of "Heroes" for at least a few years before I got around to picking up "Low." It was "Heroes" that brought me to modern Bowie. Until that I didn't want to know about anything post "Hunky Dory" and I took a long time to buy THAT album too. Scary Monsters is a lot better than you'd ever expect it to be isn't it? I agree with your inclusion of it among his best. He had a listen to all the new wave stuff and went "OK, here's my take on it" and being a very perceptive artist he seemed to pick up on the way his own records had influenced the records that he was now riffing off of. Maybe that's my imagination but that's how I see it. Sorry, another excessive post. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2389 Registered: 03-2005 |
Ooops, brain fart warning. I meant "In the Heat of the Morning" when I typed "Let Me Sleep Beside You." "Sleep" is a good record too but in a very Tim Hardin sort of way whereas "Karma Man" and "Heat" really point to the next and first famous Bowie phase. In fact you could say that "Heat" points all the way up to his blue-eyed soul thing. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2390 Registered: 03-2005 |
Listening to MWSTW now. I forgot, I later concluded that "est" must refer to electroshock therapy. I like it better as Werner Erhard's California money-sucking psychobabble fad but I'm not entirely sure that existed yet by the time of Bowie's record, not to mention the low probability of his being aware of it. Aren't you already sorry you started a Bowie thread? | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1982 Registered: 10-2004 |
Randy, this is all really interesting! I haven't really heard most of the 60s Bowie stuff that you mention. I agree - "Space Oddity" is a wonderful song, but the rest of the album is not very good. I'm jealous that you used to have the cartoon cover of TMWSTW - that's the version to have. I only have the reissue with the cover photo of Bowie doing the rock star kick. It really is a powerful record. I remember borrowing it from a friend of my then-step-dad when I was 14 and being really blown away by it. It seemed so un-Bowie like for that period. I mean, some of it is almost as dark and heavy as Sabbath, the ultimate 70s drug band. Randy - hold on to those RCA cds! Not only do they sound better than subsequent remasters, but they're also worth a lot of money and highly collectible. But if you do sell 'em - sell 'em on eBay, not at Amoeba. | ||
| cosmo vitelli Member Username: Cosmo Post Number: 310 Registered: 05-2005 |
I remember a friend playing me 'All the Madmen'in the 80s and explaining how it was about Bowie's brother Terry and how the lyrics then had a powerful emotional impact on me with their grounding in tragic reality (a moment which altered my appreciation and understanding of all song lyrics). Hunky Dory couldnt possibly be outside a Bowie top 5 Jeff but otherwise a good choice and Scary Monsters is his last great album. I sometimes wonder if Bowie had died after making that album whether he may have been considered the greatest rock musician in history based on the body of work he would have left behind at that point. | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 573 Registered: 04-2005 |
Even if he had died at that point, to call him "the greatest rock musician in history" ??? You are serious Cosmo ? Bowie is somebody for whom I could go the rest of my life never hearing again and not miss him at all. The man is a complete fraudster and pop vulture. Not one ounce of real soul. And not half as intelligent as he would like to make out either I would wager. I do speak as someone who has several LPs of his and has seen him live twice. Then I saw the light. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 725 Registered: 10-2008 |
surely you mean magpie, not vulture andrew :-) or chameleon? i can see where cosmo is coming from with his statement, not because of his "chops" or whatever the boring musical term is, but because nobody else i can think of has a body of work over a ten year period which covers so many different styles. bowie had a knack of appearing to create new genres of music, but as we all know he was pilfering from the velvets,iggy,eno,kraftwerk,dylan,the stones etc and making it seem like he had invented it himself - and he was bloody great at it | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1837 Registered: 01-2005 |
I'll pipe in and say that most folks would consider Bowie was a top 10 or even top 5 musician from 1971-80 (Hunky Dory to Scary Monsters). Bowie still seems relevant to me these days, but maybe a tad less after I've gotten the Neu! albums, as well as the better albums from Kraftwerk, Can, Eno, etc. I don't think his Berlin trilogy is as great as some critics make it out to be (as I perfer the originals such as Neu! Can and Kraftwerk) but Low and Heroes are fine albums. I don't own David Bowie, Space Oddity, Diamond Dogs, Pin-ups, TMWSTW, or The Lodger, so I'll only rate the eight I own: Low Station to Station Heroes Scary Monsters Hunky Dory Ziggy Alladin Sain Let's Dance | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2392 Registered: 03-2005 |
I'm glad Andrew has posted his comment on here, because he's certainly correct about the lack of "real soul" in Bowie's music. Normally, I'd just slag Bowie as "clever" which for me is damnation. The only explanation I have for not doing that is that he made an extraordinary lot of great records. So, no, you don't go to David Bowie for somebody exorcising his demons or pouring out his soul (although for me as a listener the song "Heroes" sets off a great emotional resonance). I like Kevin's suggestion: cultural magpie! | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1983 Registered: 10-2004 |
For Low, Bowie was definitely inspired by all the 70s Krautrock bands, particularly Neu and Kraftwerk. He took Neu and Kraftwerk's stark, minimalist approaches, and fused them with Eno's atmospheric aesthetic, as well as his own pop sensibility, and made something that was pretty unique. He could borrow pretty heavily, but always seemed to put his own unique stamp on things. The funny thing was, the musicians he used were *too* good for the music to be truly avant garde (at least the pop-oriented material). Despite the heavily treated production and Eno-isms, the music is still taut and funky and fairly intricate, which makes it more palatable. Another thing I really like about Low is that for the first time, Bowie radically changed his lyrical MO by eschewing his usual penchant for verboseness and stripping the lyrics down so that the songs have barely more than a handful of lines. The 33 1/3 book actually states that Bowie was having trouble coming up with lyrics, but instead of forcing himself to complete them, he allowed their brevity to influence the relatively brief and simple structure of the songs. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1984 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bowie may be a cultural magpie (ha!), but I do admire that in the 70s, he seemed to know when he'd arrived at an artistic dead-end, and he would go out on limb to challenge and reinvent himself. I feel like he knew how to bend and twist the influences he borrowed, so that it didn't come off like artistic theft. That said, he definitely released some clunkers in the prime of his career. I'm glad the Young Americans phase only lasted one album! And the Berlin trilogy really should've been the Berlin duo. And I never got into Diamond Dogs. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 3620 Registered: 05-2005 |
My favourite Bowie album is the first Tin Machine record. Seriously. His best compilation is The Collection, which contains one song from every studio album he released from Space Oddity (1969) to Scary Monsters (and Super Creeps) (1980) (apart from Pin Ups). It omits the hits in favour of lesser known album tracks. | ||
| David Gagen Member Username: David_g Post Number: 309 Registered: 02-2007 |
I luv the drum sound on Low. I think thats what really grabbed me when I first heard it. Hunky Dory, MWSTW and Low are classic albums inmho. Own all the Bowie vinyl from Space Oddity to Lets Dance and never bought another Bowie album after that. Run of those 8 or 9 albums almost unprecedented perhaps. As a youngster in the early 70's i discovered Velvets and Lou Reed and Iggy and etc after Bowie by branching backwards in time (or sideways) so thats why i have a personal fondness for the music. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 726 Registered: 10-2008 |
I think those of a similar vintage to David can relate to his memories of being turned on to the Velvets, Iggy etc through Bowie. Tin Machine were pants- end of story - sorry Padraig ;-) Listening to TMWSTW just now. I'm surprising myself by enjoying it so much.Although not too sure I would call it a metal album when its got stuff like "all the madman","after all", "running gun blues", and the title track. then again i think of metal as being crud like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest. Tony Visconti's bass palying is a revelation, in fact I had no idea it was him till I checked the credits. Very melodic style of playing. You can tell that this album is a bridge to Hunky Dory, I would guess some of the stuff was written in close proximity to that album. I actually worked my way backwards to TMWSTW from Alladin Sane,Ziggy and Hunky Dory(the order I bought them) when I was in my teens, 2 of these are amongst my top 5 so understandably it suffered in comparison at the time but listening to it this morning it stands up. Plus it has a massive Bolan vocal mimic in "Black Country Rock" which I never picked up on before. "She shook me cold" is terrible mind you! Andrew mentions lack of soul. I agree, but I dont want soul from Bowie, I want icy detatchment amongst other emotions. Theres plenty other artists who provide soul. I played Scary Monsters last night, never been a favourite of mine and I notice Jeff and Randy bigging it up, its also his last really big critical success I guess? Anyway I thought it was even worse than I remembered it apart from Ashes to Ashes and Fashion. The vocals are dreadful, the choruses sound very weak to me and (maybe intentionally) a bit off kilter and dont even seem to belong in the same song. I just dont get it. Lodger to me is a much better album, although far from being his best. I notice Jeff stated he loved DJ, but for me the towering song on this album is "Boys keep swinging", one of my favourite Bowie singles. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I said Station to Station was not in my top 5 Bowie albums earlier in the week, but I've been caning it all week and its in my top 5 today. Diamond Dogs would have been in my top 5 when I was in my teens, I lived and breathed that album at the time but time maybe hasnt been too kind. Rebel Rebel is great, Diamond Dogs and 1984 also sound fine but Sweet Thing is a bit boring now. Hunky Dory Low Alladin Sane Heroes Station To Station | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2394 Registered: 03-2005 |
Kevin, I haven't actually pulled out and listened to "Scary Monsters" in several years so I might end up with a different opinion. I kind of doubt it though. I always found "Boys Keep Swinging" too stereotypically Bowie. I think I'm with Jeff on that one; I prefer "DJ." TMWSTW is really the album I play the most and, yes, it's that old Side One (in vinyl terms) that is the miraculous achievement, plus the equally brilliant title song and "Running Gun Blues" is good enough--kind of like something that might have been on "Space Oddity" and "The Supermen" is also good but probably should have been swapped in the playing order with the title song. I kind of forgot about "She Shook Me Cold" and also "Savior Machine" because I always skipped them. "Savior Machine" is actually really interesting in terms of the arrangement but it feels too rushed, like they hadn't practiced it enough and worked out how it should be done. That kind of kills it. If it were up to me I'd have grafted on the beautiful "The Prettiest Star" as the obvious "single" the same way "Bachelor Kisses" is tacked onto SHF, and lost "She Shook Me Cold" altogether. But no album's perfect! Rather than "heavy metal" I see the album as a giant spoof on bands like Cream and their progeny but I'm sure Black Sabbath were in their sights too. Jeff, don't feel too bad about not having the Mercury copy of TMWSTW. It was a truly dreadful pressing, the opposite of the typically excellent standard for RCA's vinyl--at least until that dreary era deep in the 70s when RCA were trying to save oil by making the records thinner so that they warped all the time! I've always thought the title song to "Aladdin Sane" was great and it sounds like I should get the album. Ditto "Station to Station." | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 728 Registered: 10-2008 |
boys keep swinging, stereotypical randy? sorry but i cant have that :-) that guitar outro alone is a one off in the bowie cannon is it not? on station to station. i read something the other day that quoted carlos alomar saying that they were looking for a piano player and carlos just casually mentioned that roy bittan stayed with him (or in the same block) and they should give him a go. what a happy accident that was, he's all over the album and the piano playing goes a long way towards making it such a great album. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1841 Registered: 01-2005 |
And this one (lyrics from 1974 by Robyn Hitchcock) is for scully: 'Rebel Rebel' was your favorite song On the Archway Road Where it all belongs All those molecules of time That you thought you'd shed forever All those inches of time That you thought you could just say bye-bye And as Nixon left the White House You could hear people say, "They'll never rehabilitate that mother No way." Yep Whirry-whirry goes the helicopter out of my way I've got president to dump in the void Ooh Python's last series and The Guardian said, "The stench of rotting minds" But what else could you smell back then? You didn't have to inhale too hard You could smell the heads festering in the backyard There's a baby in a basket and it's taken your name And one day it'll grow up and say, "Who are you, Eh?" And you say that's where it ended But I say no no no, it just faded away August was grey It feels like 1974 Ghastly mellow saxophones all over the floor Feels like 1974 You could vote for Labour, but you can't anymore Feels like 1974 Digging Led Zeppelin in Grimsby Oh Christ | ||
| peter ward Member Username: Peter_ward Post Number: 121 Registered: 06-2005 |
favourite Bowie albums in order would be: Hunky Dory Rise and Fall Alladin Sane Heroes and Low First Bowie album I listened to was my older brother's Changestwobowie, which was played to death on the speakers run to our bedroom (the family record player was three rooms away so it kept us kids fit, taking turns turning it over endlessly!) Another favourite collection was Rare with a brilliant version of Amsterdam and the Alabama Song, A great live Panic in Detroit and a couple of curious Italian and German versions of Heroes and Space Oddity. A great live thrill was seeing him play Quicksand on an acoustic guitar at Dublin's Olympia in '97 twenty foot away. It was the start of the set and I would have happily gone home then, by the second half of the set (dodgy drum & bass Earthling Antics) I wished I had! | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1986 Registered: 10-2004 |
Kevin, Randy - I think TMWSTW is totally metal, but I'm talking early 70s metal, as it was being *defined* at the time by Black Sabbath. Songs like "Width of a Circle," "All the Madmen," "Black Country Rock," "Savior Machine," (which I've always really liked) and "She Shook Me Cold," are really not all that different from what you can hear on any of the first 6 Sabbath records, save for the vocals. Trust me on this one! Either way, it's a great album, and Mick Ronson is on fire with his scud-dropping riffage. When I got into Bowie, I started with TMWSTW and then worked my way chronologically through the Ziggy era, and all of those records seemed disappointing and commercial by comparison, although I have always liked Aladdin Sane. Scary Monsters is so incredibly brilliant that it floors me every time I hear it. It does lose focus a bit on side two, but side one is just incredible. The lead off track, "It's No Game," sets the mood with utterly warped, off the hook guitar playing courtesy of Robert Fripp, while the rest of the band provides a punchy rhythmic thrust. Bowie's agonized singing perfectly suits the song, and I love the end where he's screaming at a noodling Fripp to "SHUT UP!" The title track is also incredible. Minimal, densely textured, slightly dark new wave, with more brilliant playing from Fripp. In fact, I think this album works as a really good showcase for Fripp, since his mangled playing is all over it. "Ashes to Ashes" is a lush, moody classic, while "Fashion" is cool and fun. I could go on, but I think Scary Monsters is one of Bowie's strongest and most crucial albums. Kevin - I suspect you don't like it because the date reads 1980, your favorite decade for music! ;) Lodger leaves me cold. Only "DJ" offers anything memorable in the way of hooks or anything. And the Associates' great version of "Boys Keep Swinging" is one of those rare instances where the cover totally blows the away the original. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1987 Registered: 10-2004 |
Randy - if you can find cheap copies of Aladdin Sane and Station to Station, you should pick them up. I'm curious to hear what you think of the latter. It's seen as one of his best albums for good reason, although ultimately I see it as a transitional work, as good as it is. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2395 Registered: 03-2005 |
I listened to "Hunky Dory" this morning. I obviously have not listened to it enough because a couple of the songs on what would have been Side One were unfamiliar to me! It's striking how much this album was a look back to the Ken Pitt traditional songwriter days, just done in a little more modern more loose fashion. I already knew that but it's really hitting me again. The strong songs are so strong but, yeah, there's a little too much strummy guitar for the album's good. I have a faint memory of reading that he'd been influenced by Nilsson with this record, which sounds about right. But a few songs look back to Man Who Sold the World and a few look forward to Ziggy Stardust. I'd resequence; things are a little too similar on Side One and little too disparate on Side Two. On to "Scary Monsters" now. My chief period of playing this was when it WAS a record, i.e., vinyl. I took quite a while to get around to buying a CD version so I have the Ryko version. Kevin, this album has a bunch of solid songs in the pop sense. They have ideas and hooks, pretty much in every song. They draw on the Berlin period but also on the earlier Bowie eras. Jeez, it's been so long since I heard "Up the Hill Backwards." This just slays in a weird diffident way! And, yeah, you can't improve on Fripp as a guitarist for this type of music. It IS very New Wave/80s though and that is almost certainly the problem for you. Personally, I was glad to have a full Bowie album of songs and not instruments. "Ashes to Ashes" is a distillation of all things Bowie from "Space Oddity" through "Heroes" (and probably "Lodger" but that still needs a listen; it's probably the least-played of my Bowie CDs over the last 20 years even though one of the earliest CD purchases). Wasn't "Scary Monsters" the last RCA release? If so, it's a hell of a way to finish out a long record contract. Today I'd have to say I find a little less to get out of "Fashion" but it's still an obvious single. This used to be one of the dozen or so records that got regular play in the gay discos in Los Angeles that I could actually enjoy and therefore ended up with a very positive association for me: the drink of water to the parched desert traveler! Wow, it's very obvious that I didn't listen to Side Two very often. The first three songs are good; "Because You're Young" is not doing too much for me; it's just Bowie bloatation, whereas by contrast "Teenage Wildlife" is great epic Bowie. Ok, time to jump up; the Ryko version continues with that totally undesirable remake of "Space Oddity." Jeff, the reason I trace "TMWSTW" to Cream is that I swear Visconti was channelling Jack Bruce with his bass playing on some of the tracks, especially "Width of a Circle" on which Bowie himself sounds rather like Bruce as a vocalist and the whole thing has that arty "Wheels of Fire" vibe to it except that it is much better and funny to boot. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 729 Registered: 10-2008 |
ok, so the plan for tonight is have a chilled out few hours with the good lady, a bottle of wine and watch the dvd of "crazy heart". its supposed to be very good, and i really like some of jeff bridges later career. then its headphones on and i'm gonna have a bowie-thon!! first up is going to be "scary monsters" - i'm going to blast that mutha out big style and i'll report back later - i really want to like it honest :-) heroes,low,aladdin sane are also in the pile for listening to. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1842 Registered: 01-2005 |
Randy, Maybe in additon to being influenced by Nilsson strumming an acoustic guitar, Nick Drake and Cat Stevens (1970's huge Tea For The Tillerman) pulled David in that direction as well? | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1988 Registered: 10-2004 |
Randy - your comparison of "TMWSTW" to Cream isn't far off the mark: Black Sabbath's first record has some VERY Cream-like material, it's just that the better songs are heavier, darker, gloomier, sludgier, etc., than Cream. At the time of Sabbath's debut, some critics derided Sabbath as Cream wannabes. (For the record, I never liked Cream, and the Sabbath debut's best songs are the least Cream-like). But, "TMWSTW" approaches a kind of darkness that permeated much of Sabbath's work. Even some of the lyrical themes (insanity, apocalypse, war) are very Sabbathy. Some of Ronson's soloing isn't too different from Tony Iommi in spots, too. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 731 Registered: 10-2008 |
i dont hear nilsson on hunky dory, but i hear some of neil youngs early 70s stuff like after the gold rush, especially the piano based songs, and i think bowie mimics neils vocal style on a few songs too. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1989 Registered: 10-2004 |
Useless Bowie factoid: he's really tiny; elfin, in fact. Kind of like Prince. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 1027 Registered: 08-2004 |
I'm surprised "Heroes" gets relatively short shrift here. I actually prefer it to Low, which I find quite bleak especially on side 2. "Heroes" builds to a superb climax with 'Secret Life...', which is powerful & very modern new wave sounding even now. That's probably why I also like Lodger so much for the uptempo driving-rhythmic nature of the songs 'Yassassin', 'Look Back In Anger' etc. It's closer in style to the Scary Monsters sound than it's predecessors. Probably closer even to Station To Station, but without the longer, slower paced songs on that record. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1846 Registered: 01-2005 |
Second useless Bowie factoid: he attended the same school as Peter Frampton(Bromley Technical) where Frampton's father, Owen Frampton, was an art teacher and head of the Art department. David was a few years ahead of the younger Frampton. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2396 Registered: 03-2005 |
Jerry, I just listened to "Lodger" last night. It does seem likely that the record label had urged him to do a more "normal" record of songs and in that sense it is a warmup for "Scary Monsters." I found it interesting that I was much more familiar with all of the Lodger songs than I was with Side Two of "Scary Monsters." But I heard a lot of interesting arrangements applied to unmemorable songs. And the interesting arrangements seemed to be appliques to the songs (such as the total ripoff of the rhythm section from "Funky Kingston" that was applied to "Yassassin"). I'm not a Doors fan and don't have their records to consult so I can't remember which Doors song is heavily lifted from to get the bass and guitar bits on "Repetition." Kevin, I was cooking my dinner when "Boys Keep Swinging" came on so I didn't hear the guitar intro but the song itself just lies flat for me. I'm not sure "Heroes" is getting short shrift here since it seems to be in everybody's "best" list. I personally haven't pulled it out yet for a new critical listen but I expect to like it very much as I always have. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1990 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'm not a huge fan of Hunky Dory. There, I got that off my chest! It's not that I dislike it, I'm just not all that into it. I like that he put out an album of pop songs after the dark, hard rocking "TMWSTW," because now that people were paying attention, he demonstrated early on what a chameleon he was. But as an album, it's just not my favorite and I think Bowie is usually better when he's not being so self-consciously commercial (and I just discovered while going through my Bowie LPs that I no longer appear to own it!). Jerry - I don't think Heroes is getting short shrift, per se. Looks like everyone includes in their top 5. I just prefer Low to Heroes because I think that Low's poppier material is better composed, more thoughtfully arranged and produced, and just more interesting. And I think Low's instrumentals are more melodically engaging and emotionally stirring. They command my active attention and they give me goose bumps. Heroes' instrumentals are great, but to me they're a bit stagnant by comparison. Plus, I think Low is the better produced of the two, overall. With the exception of the indisputably wonderful title track, Heroes has always sounded rushed to me. Having said that, it's still one of his better albums. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1991 Registered: 10-2004 |
Oh, and Jerry - I do agree that "Secret Life.." is a good song. It's got a cool art-disco vibe, and of the album's pop-oriented material, it stands out. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1847 Registered: 01-2005 |
I'm not a huge Doors fan either Randy, although the first album has got some strong songs on it (but subsequent albums had a lesser percentage of them if I recall my vinyl Doors albums correctly). Maybe my chief complaint against them was their sound in that Ray Manzarek had to play the bass lines on his Fender Rhodes. While I don't mind the keyboard player being the bass player in an jazz setting (Hammond B3), I generally don't care for the sound of it in a rock setting. Maybe they used a hired bass player on occasion in the studio or on tour? This of course doesn't apply to the total lack of a bass player, as sometimes it works out fine (the viola droning Cale era Velvets or more recently the White Stipes), but most of the times it doesn't (Sleater-Kinney tends to be too brittle sounding after a song or two). | ||
| Hugh Nimmo Member Username: Hugh_nimmo Post Number: 269 Registered: 03-2007 |
Michael, Douglas Lubahn is credited with playing bass on various tracks on Strange Days, Waiting For The Sun and The Soft Parade while Jerry Scheff is credited on L.A. Woman. According to some reports ( unconfirmed ) Larry Knechtel the session musician played bass ( uncredited ) on several tracks on the first album ( Soul Kitchen; Twentieth Century Fox; Back Door Man; I Looked At You; Take It As It Comes.) I think there were also a few other musicians credited with playing bass on individual tracks on the above albums. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 732 Registered: 10-2008 |
Randy, minor point, but it's actually the outro thats wonderful about Boys Keep Swinging. It lasts for at least 75 seconds and totally changes what up till then had been a straightforward pop song, albeit a pop song by David Bowie. I actually assumed it was a Fripp solo, but checking it out I guess it was by Adrian Belew. Dont know where Fripp disappeared to, because he was on Heroes and Scary Monsters - the albums either side of Lodger. I also love the bass line in Boys Keep Swinging, which may or may not be treated. Another great bass line appears on Red Money, which is Iggy's Sister Midnight in another guise. Lodger to me is stronger than Scary Monsters because its more consistent over all, and the only real clinker for me is Red Sails. Which brings me to Scary Monsters. I've played it twice since last night and I am softening in my attitude and listening with fresh ears so to speak. Side 1 is actually pretty good, but my problems start with Teenage Wildlife - too overblown for my tastes. The songs after that are still weak to my mind, the second version of Its No Game which closes the album is pointless and dull, even if it is meant to contrast with the unhinged frenzy of the version thats the opening track. Low is just fantastic from beginning to end, its perfect in pace and variation of songs, and great listening for a late Sunday morning. Maybe its just me, but I dont think Low sounds that similar to Heroes even though they always seem to be thought of as twins. The "songs" on Heroes arent as short and quirky as those on Low, and the instrumentals a bit more stark. Although, I havent listened to Heroes in about 5 years, maybe I'll change that opinion when I play it later tonight or tomorrow. Randy, I listened to Repetition again, but dont pick up on the bass steal from The Doors, its not an obvious one I dont think. I actually thought you had said it was Yassassin that nicked the bass line so I listened to that initially before I realised my mistake, but funnily enough Yassassin seems to nick elements of The Doors version of Alabama Song (Whiskey Bar). | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2398 Registered: 03-2005 |
Kevin, "Yassassin" swipes the bass part from Toots & the Maytals' "Funky Kingston." I'll be pulling out "Heroes" sometime today. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1848 Registered: 01-2005 |
Hugh, Thanks for the Doors update. I guess my comments would apply more so to their live gigs (unless they toured with a hired bass gun). | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1992 Registered: 10-2004 |
Re-visiting Heroes right now. Two songs in, and I think that the production/mix of "Beauty and the Beast" and "Joe the Lion" is a total mess. It sounds like they turned all the instruments up to the same level and then recorded Bowie's vocals in a cardboard box. Compositionally, both songs sound inconsequential and half-baked, like they quickly banged out a couple of rock songs because they had to fill out a record. These two opening tracks are partly to blame as to why I rate Heroes lower than Low. But then "Heroes" comes in and sounds totally different and beautiful, evoking this wide open, futuristic vista. It's totally focused and beautifully arranged. "Sons of the Silent Age" sounds like a throw-back to Station to Station coupled with strong shades of Bowie's hippie sci-fi shtick from earlier in his career. It's a decent song, but it seems a bit anachronistic for him. Also noticing how Heroes' production is more conventional than that of Low's, and kind of muddy in spots. "Blackout" starts off promising, but doesn't really go anywhere and then gets kind of messy and unfocused. Fripp's playing would be much more distinctive on Scary Monsters. I love all of side 2. If I could just have the title track and entirety of side 2, I'd be totally happy. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 735 Registered: 10-2008 |
I havent played Heroes in ages before tonight and thought the vocal side sounded fantastic, even better than I remember. The first 3 tracks are just great and I love the lyrics in Joe The Lion - "nail me to my car, and I'll tell you who you are" - genius !! Agree with Jeff about Blackout, plus it seems to borrow from former glories - there is an almost direct steal from Panic In Detroit from Aladdin Sane. Side 2 of Heroes is just immense. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1993 Registered: 10-2004 |
I hadn't played Lodger in quite a while before tonight... I'm still not crazy about it. "DJ" is still the standout, but "Move On" is actually a pretty good tune, and "Red Sails" isn't bad. Kevin's right about Adrian Belew's super cool guitar solo on "Boys Keep Swinging," although I still prefer the Associates' version. "Repetition" isn't bad... But ultimately, at least half of the album sounds kind of dialed in to me, like Bowie didn't really invest a lot of himself in the making of it. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2399 Registered: 03-2005 |
Whereas I'm on "Heroes" right now, specifically V2Schneider. Comments later. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2400 Registered: 03-2005 |
Ok, "Secret Life of Arabia" is on its fade. Of the vocal songs this is the only one that is mixed differently than those on Side One. The drums are pulled forward and the brighteners have been added to everything. In fact I'm surprised the credits don't show it mixed in a different place than the rest of the album. The first four songs on Side One are a very satisfying stretch for me. "Beauty and the Beast" is the sort of thing that the Stones had seemingly lost the ability to do. The sound that Jeff objects to is kind of an underwater, druggy sound. I almost want to say that it all sounds like it's out of phase. It definitely sounds to me like a conscious choice. I've always loved the sound of (presumably) Robert Fripp's guitar on "Joe the Lion." It's one of those heroin in the arm things for me, just a great tone and a great riff. The "nail me to my car" thing is interesting (I never read the lyrics, but Kevin's quote sent me to them) because what I hear is "get me to my car and I'll tell you who you are" which is much more straightforward as an image of somebody getting too wasted in the clubs (which is how I read the song). I don't perceive "Heroes" to be mixed any differently than the first two songs. The difference is that the uncluttered chord progression and uncluttered arrangement prevents it from sounding the way that Jeff objects to on the first two songs. And it's still a very moving song. I can't imagine seeing him do it on stage; he'd almost certainly just walk through it and ruin it. I realize this is not the song's import but as a gay man "though nothing will keep us together, we can be heroes just for one day" has always really resonated. In 1977 there was literally nothing to keep a couple together and another half-dozen years later it was much worse; being together gave you a solid chance of dying prematurely. Since I like Bowie's hippie sci-fi schtick "Sons of the Silent Age" works just fine for me. I would skip "Blackout." I love V-2 Schneider and always have. It's a classic old-fashioned rock instrumental with modern instruments. I confess that I don't really get a whole lot out of the string of three instrumentals that follow. "Sense of Doubt" keeps reminding me of "Every Christian Lion-Hearted Man Will Show You" from Bee Gees' 1st. And, no, I'm not saying anybody nicked it but if Hugh sees this he'll know what I mean. I just find this string of three semi-ambient instrumentals not very engaging. And "Secret Life of Arabia" is indeed a great closer. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1994 Registered: 10-2004 |
Randy, yeah, I think it's the super cluttered mix and the relatively artless, straight ahead rawk style of the first two songs on Heroes that makes me not like them so much. If "Beauty and the Beast" is Stones-esque, that alone could explain why it doesn't do anything for me. I agree - "Secret Life" is a wonderful song, and has a much more open, less cluttered sound. I wouldn't be surprised if it *was* mixed somewhere else. As for Heroes' production as a whole, I just prefer Low's more bizarre, avant garde sound. Have you had a chance to tackle Low yet? I'm curious to know what you think of that one. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 736 Registered: 10-2008 |
here's a thought. the talk seems to have drifted towards how some of us are "hearing" things on scary monsters,low,heroes and lodger. we're probaly all listening to different versions - jeff almost certainly on vinyl, perhaps randy too. if not there are various different remaster jobs on cd they could be listening to. i'm listening to them all on what i understand to be the most up to date remaster jobs. i've also mostly been listening exclusively on what randy refers to as my uber expensive "glass cutting" headphones. this means i'm not really picking up on the mixing deficiencies that have been mentioned. of course, ultimately its all about the songs, but if you dont like how a song "sounds" it can colour your judgement on how good a song you think it is. i'm listening to aladdin sane right now. ive always thought this album "sounded" great, as well as being consistently high in the song writing stakes. | ||
| frank bascombe Member Username: Frankb Post Number: 468 Registered: 01-2007 |
Use to love Bowie but until recently thought I'd grown out of him but interstingly have bought some of the things I use to love on CD.Some of the Cds are different to how I remeber them but still love Hunky Dory Aladdinsane Station Ziggy Low Low I think was the one which I liked most after the relistens (is that a word) | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2401 Registered: 03-2005 |
Kevin, you make a good observation. From my recording experience I've learned that the immediacy of headphones masks all sorts of mixing errors. In the case of the Sony ones that I use for recording they also brighten everything. If I try to mix on them when I playback through the house speakers (KEF & ADS) it'll always be wildly wrong. And a good new remix/remaster can really transform a record and give it fantastic new life. For me personally the best examples of that are "Tallulah" and the Triffids' "Treeless Plain." Having said that, I think I'm pretty tolerant of crappy sound when the songs are great. That's why I get so much enjoyment out of super early--pre-professional--work by a lot of artists. I'm really focusing on the songs and arrangement ideas and sometimes I like it better than the later professional stuff. I don't know if you are also picking up on my comment about the sound of Fripp's guitar on "Joe the Lion." That's something else entirely. God knows I'm not much of a guitarist but I can probably speak for most--if not all--electric guitarists when I say that we're constantly looking for a "sound," a tone and a certain type of attack for whatever it is we're trying to do and that's why players end up bonded to particular guitars and particular amps. The Fender Stratocaster (also Jag) became such standard choices because they have five-position pickup selector switches and then several tone reostats. You can make a LOT of sounds on them. When I talk about "sound" in that context I'm really talking about the choice of instrument and the artful twiddling of the dials on that instrument. If you weren't referring to my comments about the guitar, then never mind. I'm not personally listening on vinyl because I gave away all of my Bowie vinyl (except that I still have Arnold Corns). In the case of Low, Heroes and Lodger I'm listening to the old 1980s vintage RCA CD releases. I refer to Side One and Side Two because, well, I'll always think of the songs in that fashion for albums that I originally bonded with in vinyl format (not to mention the fact that I've concluded that five or six song stretches are better for listening anyway). Jeff, Low was the first album I pulled and listened to when this thread got its start. But I'm going to listen to it again because, weirdly, I really didn't ever hear Low until much, much later than "Heroes" and not until I'd moved out of my big Bowie-listening period. All of which means that I'm not nearly familiar enough with it except for a couple of the obvious songs like "Sound and Vision." and "Crashing in the Same Car." Until this thread the only Bowie I had loaded onto the computer for transfer onto the iPod (which is how I listen at work and when I go out of town) was basically everything from 1965 through TMWSTW and nothing newer. And I have a crapload of music on there, though much more biased to what all of you wonderful people have turned me onto over the past half dozen years. A good thing! But not even "Heroes" was uploaded. I do indeed love the two "rawk" numbers on Heroes. The Stones were my first love when I was a pre-teen in the mid-60s and anybody who can hit that groove correctly will score well with me, especially if they have the good sense to do it only once. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1996 Registered: 10-2004 |
Kevin - unfortunately, the most recent EMI/Virgin remasters of Bowie's 70s output all sound comparatively bad. The original RCA CDs sound the best, and that view is shared among pretty much every Bowie fan in the audiophile community. The RCA CDs sound closest to the vinyl, and hence, closest to the original masters. The Rykodiscs that came out in '89 are so bright and shrill that you could cut glass with them. The EMI/Virgins are loud, compressed, and no-noised. The RCAs sound natural, warm, dynamic, and very detailed. Let's just say there is a good reason why the upcoming "Super deluxe" reissue of Station to Station includes a bonus disk of the original RCA CD master. For an interesting comparison, check out this website: http://www.levipeckham.com/weblog/2009/0 8/on-david-bowies-low-album-emi-rykodisc -rca-masterings/ Here you can download wave files of the first minute of "Breaking Glass" from the RCA CD and vinyl, as well as the EMI/Virgin and Rykodisc masters. I geek out over this kind of thing. For me, the RCA CD easily beats the pants off the EMI/Virgin and Rykodisc. But it's ultimately a matter of taste, so others might disagree. Check this out and see for yourselves! That said, I've been listening to the RCA CD of Low, and everything else on vinyl (original US RCA versions, except for Lodger, Scary Monsters and TMWSTW, which are 2nd or 3rd pressings). Even though it's not a first pressing, my Scary Monsters sounds *amazing*, but my copy of Lodger was pressed on flimsy vinyl and I bet an original pressing sounds better. I have a good set up for vinyl, so a nice pressing in good condition sounds rich and detailed. Funny what Randy mentions about headphones - I seem to have the opposite experience, in that for me headphones reveal more details in the mix. My headphones (AKG studio somethingrather) are really flat, so they don't hype the upper or lower frequencies, fwiw. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1997 Registered: 10-2004 |
Side two of Scary Monsters... Side one is inarguably brilliant, but side two does suffer by comparison. I agree with Kevin about "Teenage Wildlife," it's overblown and is something Bowie does sometimes that I can't really get behind. I like "Scream Like a Baby," though, and I also dig his cover of Tom Verlaine's "Kingdom Come." I assume we're all familiar with Verlaine's debut? I obviously like the original, but Bowie injects the tune with a lot of energy, and Fripp's soaring leads are amazing. "Because You're Young" is pleasant but not bad. While "It's No Game Pt. 2" does seem kind of pointless and Pt. 1 is obviously way better, I don't mind it. Scary Monsters was front loaded, but there are definitely worse things in Bowie's catalog than side 2. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1837 Registered: 09-2006 |
Randy, I thought "nail me to my car" was pretty straightforward in its way...walk by the parking lot of many clubs near closing time and you'll see plenty of folks being nailed to their cars by someone they just met earlier that evening...  | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2402 Registered: 03-2005 |
Jeff, the headphones definitely reveal more in the mix. My experience is totally similar on that score. I can hear everything. But that's why I cannot mix with them. I end up discovering that certain items were not pulled forward enough, or are too far forward, for conventional loudspeakers. I always use my house loudspeakers for mixing. I'm familiar with their foibles and they force me to decide what should come forward and what can stand back. They also show me how things will work when bouncing off walls, windows and furniture. I obviously have a similar view of Side Two on "Scary Monsters" since I didn't remember any of it when I played it, whereas I could remember the entirety of "Lodger" when I played it. I still don't think "Lodger" is all that great though. I found it interesting that when I listened to "Heroes" last night (mid-80s RCA CD) I had to jack up the pre-amp volume to a level I nearly never use. Allen that's funny. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1998 Registered: 10-2004 |
Oh yeah, it's almost never a good idea to actually *mix* while wearing headphones - they don't give you an accurate picture of where everything needs to go. I never, ever mix with headphones Much better to use speakers for that! I have a pair of Yamaha NS 10s that I use. Those RCA CDs are quiet - like the vinyl. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 737 Registered: 10-2008 |
damn - i have those inferior sounding emi/virgin cd's then. which is annoying because i fell for the con that these were 24 bit remasters so would sound better. i had the original rca cds, but traded them in or sold them at the second hand store. i dont think the emi's sound that bad to be honest, but jeff seems to have proved the rca's were superior. i sold my original bowie vinyl in the late 80's when i replaced them with the original cd's. about 10 years ago i had a vinyl epiphany and decided that i should start listening to records again, so i bought second hand copies of most of the bowie catelogue from hunky dory - scary monsters. unfortunately, being second hand, and over 20 years old they arent in great condition but at least i still have them. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 1999 Registered: 10-2004 |
Kevin - at least you don't have the Rykos, in my opinion those are the worst. And it's true - the EMI/Virgins aren't as bad when compared to some remasters by other artists. When I first bought Low, when I was about 14-15 years old, the Rykodisc remasters had just come out, and apparently everyone had traded in their RCAs for the Rykos. I bought the LP, but a friend of mine who worked in the record store was trying to persuade me to instead buy one of the gazillions of RCA CDs that his shop couldn't get rid of. And now, 20 years later, those RCAs are like an elusive holy grail. If only I'd known then! | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2000 Registered: 10-2004 |
So, at the risk of being redundant, I listened to side 1 of Heroes *again* to try and understand what you guys see in those first two songs. I think "Beauty and the Beast" is never going to work for me - it's so unengaging to these ears. It's like "shake your booty & party" music. I think "Joe the Lion" is better/more interesting, but after listening to it 3 times in the past couple days I STILL CAN'T REMEMBER HOW IT GOES when I'm not hearing it. "Blackout" has a truly great intro and then after that, it's a mess. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2403 Registered: 03-2005 |
Jeff, "Beauty and the Beast" IS "shake your booty & party" music! That's its point. It's a fine example, complete with weird Eno effects. But as I suggested up above: do it once. I don't see the point of trying to figure out what we like about those songs. Probably Kevin and I like different things about them just like any two different people will. It's always idiosyncratic. Since we both like the Stones, albeit from different eras, that's probably how we both end up on "Beauty and the Beast." I'm amazed at the thought of RCA Bowie discs being hard to find. After all, we're talking about David Bowie not the Tactics or the last McCarthy album. It's time to go visit your mom in the burbs and stop at all the crappiest-looking garage and yard sales on the way. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2404 Registered: 03-2005 |
Ok, another listen to "Low." "Speed of Life" is a great opener, a proper memorable instrumental. "Breaking Glass" has an unexpected anomaly. It starts out with one of those classic lurid Bowie guitar bits, all whammy bar twisted ala Mick Ronson. But then Alomar keeps throwing out a classic blues rock lick in the verses. I mean classic as in Peter Green in John Mayall & the Bluesbreakers type. Really unexpected. "What in the World" sounds like a typical busy Bowie song. Lots of running in place. They're seldom among my favorites. Well, we all know "Sound and Vision," with its kooky montage of early-60s pop elements run through the blender, a little doo-wop, a little girl-rock, a whole lot of Honey Drippers doing "Sea of Love" (though that hadn't happened yet, had it?) I've always loved this odd little song. I'm sure "I'm Always Crashing in the Same Car" has always stuck in my mind even with insufficient play of this album because it's so great. It's got an almost Dave Formula/Magazine vibe going. Imagine them covering it around the time of Secondhand Daylight. And the simple repeating cello figure is a classic feature of good Bowie: an easy to grasp repetitious instrumental hook moving across chord changes but not changing itself. This is the fulcrum on this album, for me. "Be My Wife"--I must say I totally approve of the disciplined short length of all the songs on here. This one is weirdly suggestive to me of Supertramp--I think because of the pounding piano figure. Fortunately it's Bowie instead. Really pretty guitar work from Ricky Gardener in the fade. So, for me, Side One has one clunker and everything else is great. Or was "A New Career in a New Town" still on Side One? (After all, Side One is pretty short if it's just the six songs.) It sounds the opener rather than the closer. It's great too. These catchy entertaining instrumentals are the kind that work for me. I have to be in a really special mood to get a lot out of the ambient ones that make up most of Side Two of "Heroes." And now we go to "Warszawa." At the beginning this sounds like it's going to be the snoozer for me. Huh, actually it turns into a rather pretty and decidedly old-fashioned ballad. Ah, now the vocal section. This is also pretty but Bowie's vocals definitely make it sound like a film sound track where we're now panning across the Serengeti, or some flat part of the Ukrainian steppe before the antagonists appear on the horizon. They can be on horses or in Land Rovers; it works in either film. Then back to the ballad. Yep, Jeff, so far the instrumentals have more character to them than those on "Heroes" except for "V-2 Schneider." "Art Decade" is again a melodic number, kind of like an update to whatever the instrumental on "Pet Sounds" is called. It's fine but I hope the next one isn't another instrumental ballad. Ok, "Weeping Wall" is not another ballad. Since it's all Bowie's instruments it IS the most Bowie of these instrumentals, isn't it? It's not bad but I'm ready for a vocal track. But I get "Subterraneans" instead. I'd say lose "Weeping Wall" and keep "Subterraneans" and the close with a regular vocal song, probably something off-kilter like "Secret Life of Arabia." All of these remind me to pull out the CD I have of Lilac Time's "Paradise Circus." It has tacked onto it a 12 song instrumental album that was never released. I remember the instrumentals being wonderfully varied and quite good. I remember them leaving a better cumulative impression for me than this group, but yes these are generally better than the "Heroes" string of instrumentals. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2001 Registered: 10-2004 |
Randy - I'm glad you mentioned Magazine, because I think Low was a huge influence on them. I'm convinced that Low is what helped make Devoto lose interest in simplistic punk rock. Low was obviously a huge influence on Joy Division and Martin Hannett's production work, as well. I agree, at its core, "Breaking Glass" is kind of a corny song, but it's got such a groove. It shuffles, struts, and swings all at the same time. It verges on "shake your booty and party" music, but the bizarre, anti-social lyrics and the art-damaged production flourishes balance that out. The burbling and buzzing synths that punctuate "What in the World" are almost menacing, and Ricky Gardiner's guitar playing here sounds VERY much like Fripp. I know nothing about Ricky Gardiner, but I really like his playing on the album. He was originally supposed to play on The Idiot, too, but that fell through at the last minute. "What in the World" was first intended for The Idiot, but Bowie decided to save it for Low. That's Mr. Osterberg doing the backing vocals on this one. Speaking of The Idiot - what do we all think of it? If you strip away the vocals, it's basically a Bowie record. Even though Bowie worked on the album concurrently with Low, the 33 1/3 book states that Bowie was using The Idiot to test out new ideas that he would then bring to fruition on the Low sessions. I love The Idiot, and I think it's Iggy Pop's best record. It's bizarre, strangely menacing yet detached, icy, etc.... and was clearly hugely influential. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2002 Registered: 10-2004 |
Oh, and "A New Career in a New Town" closes out side one. I adore the analog synth sounds in this one, particularly in the intro. It's a great, catchy tune. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2003 Registered: 10-2004 |
Oh, and I love your description of "Warszawa," Randy. It does have a cinematic quality, and is kind of evocative of John Barry or Ennio Morricone if they were flung into the future to write soundtracks for dystopian sci-fi epics. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 738 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeff, The Idiot is great. Especially Sister Midnight, China Girl, Funtime and Nightclubbing. I personally prefer Lust For Life over The Idiot, but only just. When you say its Iggy's best record are you including The Stooges records as well? Its astonishing to think that Bowie was involved in the two Iggy albums, and Low and Heroes in just one year. As I type this "Boys Keep Swinging" comes on the radio at work - spooky. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2408 Registered: 03-2005 |
I can't weigh in on this because the only Iggy albums I have (not counting the Stooges) are "Zombie Birdhouse," "Blah Blah Blah" and "American Caesar." I remember passing over cheap used copies of the "The Idiot" many times. I had no idea it was as early as 1977 or 1978. I used to play "Blah Blah Blah" quite a bit when it was new but haven't played it in over 20 years. Somehow I remember it being like the Bryan Ferry solo records around that time. "American Caesar" never lit me up all that much. But "Zombie Birdhouse" still gets played every once in a while. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2005 Registered: 10-2004 |
Kevin, when I say The Idiot is Iggy's best, I'm only talking about his solo work. I love the Stooges, but it's like comparing apples and oranges when regarding his solo output. I like Lust for Life quite a bit, too - it's got an incredible "live" sound, and the drumming (and drum sound) is just sick! The songs are mostly fantastic. On this one, Bowie clearly allowed Iggy to be Iggy; whereas The Idiot is cloaked in Bowie-enforced detached artiness, Lust for Life totally lives up to its title. I probably give the nod to The Idiot, though, because I dig the artiness. I agree, it's really amazing that in the span of about 1.5 years, Bowie created not only Low and Heroes, two of his best albums, but also the first two Iggy records. A phenomenally productive time for him. Randy - I would go out on a limb to say that The Idiot and Lust for Life are the ONLY Iggy Pop solo albums anyone truly needs. I could live a decent life without any of the others. That said, Zombie Birdhouse is probably his third best, followed by Party or New Values. I would highly recommend both The Idiot and Lust for Life, and I'd recommend the former to anyone interested in Bowie's Berlin trilogy, because it's very much a part of that. (The only thing that pains me about Lust for Life is how the title track has been used to death in luxury cruise ship commercials). | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1851 Registered: 01-2005 |
I've been holding out on buying The Idiot and Lust For Live in hopes of reissues with bonus tracks and remastered sound. Jeff, What do you think of the current cd's of them? Do they need to be remastered, or do they sound fine? | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2008 Registered: 10-2004 |
Michael - actually, I don't know! I have both albums on vinyl only. I'm curious too, as I wouldn't mind having the CDs so that I can get them onto the iPod and/or listen to them in car. Plus, my copy of the Idiot isn't in the best condition. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 739 Registered: 10-2008 |
Michael. I have the Virgin CD of Lust For Life (1990) which I played today. I thought it sounded crap, especially Iggy's vocals, which sounded like there was minor static interference, or a bit like listening to the radio when its not quite tuned into the station properly. Cant remember hearing this before, maybe my hifi is highlighting deficiencies in the master, or maybe i just have a crap copy. I havent heard Zombie Birdhouse, I need to rectify that. Played Eno's Another Green World - stunning. | ||
| Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 54 Registered: 04-2009 |
From a purely artistic perspective, I don't necessarily think Bowie ever meant more to music than a given pop song at a given time. For all his shifts and all their influence, he was never really able to extend his flukes of invention successfully over two sides of any album. So I don't think it's wrong to historically define him by the obvious stuff, which isn't always the way to go with many major artists. The sometimes heavy-handed archness and eccentricity that's marked most of his work, and fueled his most deliberately innovative stuff (Station to Station through Scary Monsters), seems to expose him as a man who's really not comfortable or in tune with the kind of universality that ought to (and usually does) accompany the greatest and most fulfilling music, and as such doesn't know how to hit any heights he hasn't defined himself. That makes him cool and fascinating and an inspiration to a lot of important people that were able to either do more extreme or more effective things with it, but hardly any standard of genius. Hunky Dory is probably the album on which the full scope of his talents, however unrecognizably they were contorted on later efforts, are most palpable, approchable, and appreciable. There really isn't anything about Bowie that you can't learn from or locate on that record. Otherwise, his random acts of God are pretty effectively and accurately condensed on the Changesbowie compilations, with a personal soft-spot for "Young Americans", my very favorite though the album blows -- that end moment with the spew of words and thoughts is uncanny -- and further damn obvious stuff ("Rebel Rebel", "Ziggy Stardust", "All the Young Dudes", "Space Oddity", "Heroes", "Ashes to Ashes", "Golden Years"). I also think it would be fallacious to suggest that the hollowness that occupied more of Bowie's music when he went deliberately commercial in '83 marked any kind of major sea change for better or worse; it was always weird pop songs and it still was, until around the time I was born and Bowie turned 40, and the vapidity overtook the inspiration. So he just ran out of ideas, I guess. He still does okay, but hasn't made a special track in what must feel like a billion years to people who care about him. Finally, I think it's wacky that he collaborated with (and, what, was close to?) John Lennon, who I'm sure he liked the best out of all the Beatles, when his obvious Fab Four progenitor is Paul, with whom he shares creative limits and a love for the fey/sentimental. If rock will forever be divided into liberal-v.-conservative right-v.-wrong John-v.-Paul camps, Bowie is one of the more spirited members of the latter, more regressive one. There's nothing as egregious about rock Paulism as there is about political conservatism, naturally, but it obstinately (if playfully) resists a kind of illumination about what's actually what that I would think great work in any medium requires. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 1028 Registered: 08-2004 |
Hunky Dory is a pretty straight forward Folk record + strings + Glam/Blues/Rock riffs. With yet-to-be hit singles scattered throughout. It's a method he used through to Diamond Dogs, quickly becoming more Transatlantic each time. TMWSTW was also along similar lines but never plundered for hits unless you count Lulu or Nirvana. It was Glamrock in it's infancy before it became a marketing concern. Then came a single which was celebrity-focused, unemotive & as funky as a Lennon co-write could possibly be. 'Fame' is as good as 'Golden Years', 'Sound & Vision' or 'Boys Keep Swinging'. And it was a huge hit in America. I don't think at any stage did Bowie wish to be so arty as to be uncommercial. Fame was exactly what he craved & took full advantage of striking while the iron was hot. It is an astounding period of work across a decade. His own influence became his downfall, I think. There were so many emulating his sound, some even improving the template. There was nowhere left to go. The same could be said of Kraftwerk, who pretty much bottomed out after 'Tour De France' It's quite a tough balancing act on the crest of a wave. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1840 Registered: 09-2006 |
Victor, I think such splits will only exist as long as people insist that it does, and personally I think they not only help/illuminate nothing, but are actively harmful...the shouting matches by political pundits on TV that are one hair away from being WWF and certainly don't constitute news, are a prime example. They're distractions from anything that's truly important. And more than once John, in those unguarded moments where he didn't feel such a need to come off "edgy" and "cool" admitted that he needed Paul as much as Paul needed him. To me that's the "what is truly what" of it. | ||
| Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 55 Registered: 04-2009 |
I don't know that I was arguing for the evasion of a quote-unquote bipartisan common-cause-compromise view (though that was certainly implicit) so much as stating the somewhat undeniable fact that Paul on his own was far more destructive to rock than John was. John made some serious stumbles - sort of akin, I guess, to the inability-to-govern that liberal politicians are known for. But, to put it in the tritest possible terms, his heart was always in the right place, and when it clicked, it clicked ("Instant Karma", the first two albums, the Yoko albums). Paul's unapologetic pursuit of a politer, fluffier, less gritty and thoughtful rock had inarguably serious bearings on the schlock of the 70s and beyond; meanwhile, he never cut more than a few great songs ("Maybe I'm Amazed", "Too Many People" and does "Let Me Roll It" count?) or a particularly good album (arguments to the contrary are welcome). Yeah, it was how he was wired, but if we're to assume some kind of universal objectivity in artistic philosophy - which we definitely have to in politics - we have to acknowledge that it set the stage for far greater artistic sins than "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" or Wings Wild Life. There was never the aesthetic integrity in Paul's work that John's was always laced with, (and yes, I say that without bothering to provide a definition for "aesthetic integrity"). There's a lot of argument in this country (US) for the pursuit of a watered-down compromise version of the primary opposing ideological polls, but the bottom line is, if there are two completely different prescriptions for societal improvement, there is a greater likelihood that one is right and the other is wrong, rather than assuming that both veer to unnecessary extremes. Opposite policies are different degrees of effective at different times, but the constant cries for gap-bridging-for-the-sake-of-gap-bridgin g from commentators like Davids Brooks and Broder, the "stop yelling!" argument, dilutes the progressive passion necessary to execute anything in this political environment. (I'll refrain from trying to elaborate until somebody indicates they want to continue.) If you're right, it's worth fighting for. But yes, you should be able to detail exactly why you're right, and until you get into the realm of taste-bud differences it's pretty hard to argue in favor of total ambiguity. Anyway, yeah, John (whose edginess and coolness never felt forced in his best music) probably needed Paul, but that doesn't mean that Paul was ever the key-genius ingredient in the mix. I think he was more of a context, with access to certain musical skills and aspects of visions that John lacked or was incapable of. So maybe the new British coalition thing is an apt comparison, though history has yet to show what exactly is going to come of that. But John did pretty admirably on his own, whereas Paul's best moments are arguably hopeless flukes, hardly the work of a man capable of artistic transcendence. He's not beyond redemption or learning something: Memory Almost Full was a pretty terrific, smart album. And yet facts are facts and limits are limits, good is good and bad is bad. The evidence of both men's solo careers and the measurable trends of Lennonism and McCartneyism in post-Beatles rock music illustrate clear differences in the two former partners' places in their art. What all of this requires is a belief in objectivity in art - that there are provable standards of "good art" and "bad art". I know for most people this is totally contrary to their perception of what art is, or is supposed to accompish. So I understand if none of this works for those people, but if you're of the former belief, rebut away. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1841 Registered: 09-2006 |
I don't believe that there are provable standards for "good art" and "bad art"...I think it's all taste-bud differences. One of the few things I know in this world is that we know very little, though we often claim otherwise. Another thing I know is that an opinion about a piece of art can't be transmuted into a fact, no matter how deeply felt and/or passionately expressed, and the claim that said opinion contains any sort of objectivity is supported by nothing but pure ego. Forgive me if I'm hopelessly misunderstanding you, but are you saying that the next time I hear a piece of music, instead of trusting my own instincts about whether I resonate with it or not I should instead check it up against some standards of good and bad that...who, you? have determined, and what you've determined art is supposed to accomplish? Come on...after all these thousands of years no one has even come up with a definition of the word "art" that has stuck. For many years I've watched this critic or that group of critics try and establish a canon of great works and rules for what constitutes great art and each one has disagreed with each of the others on which works should be included and what exactly the criterion are and each canon has fallen by the wayside, usually in the time it takes for the next issue of their publication to come out. What it's left behind is an ongoing consensus-of-sorts, which can be very helpful to someone looking for something new to listen to, but which hardly constitutes the "truth." | ||
| Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 56 Registered: 04-2009 |
Well, there's no point in arguing it, I suppose, if we're approaching it from such inherently incompatible viewpoints. The idea of objectivity in art is definitely something I've been fond of for a long time, but in terms of knowing how to codify the standards, yeah, it's idealistic to impossible. The hope is that with eons and eons of discussion some kind of canon can fall into place, but there's admittedly no way to guarantee anything. Pink Floyd enchant as many people as they put off; I think the reviled "Umbrella" is a terrific song, but is it? What's the criteria? It's one of those things that once you inject it into the dialogue it theoretically makes things more interesting, but art and sports both have one thing in common with life: they're essentially meaningless. So no offense; you're right, it COULD all be taste-bud differences. The only problem is that then, all discussions about the same piece of music/art/whatever essentially become an opinion showcase. "Well I think this." Well, great, but if everybody's innately different, then who cares? Isn't the point of threads like this to argue constants and locate consensus? What's the point of asserting viewpoints if there's no reason to believe you're right, because it's just your opinion? (And if all art is subjective, then why do we spend so much time making lists, and so much money on awards shows? And hey, wasn't this a David Bowie thing?) | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1842 Registered: 09-2006 |
I'll begin by saying that the following is completely my opinion. For me the biggest draw of discussions about music/film/lit/etc. with friends and chatboards like this is communal sharing. Sounds a bit hippy-dippy, perhaps, but that's as close as I can come to nailing it (and there'll probably be more neo-hippy-dippy to come, so brace yourself -that's kinda how I roll...). This particular thread is an excellent case in point: several folks having a chat about a certain artist, seeing where they agree and disagree...someone's posting about a certain song perhaps causes someone else to go back to that song and maybe see something in it they've never seen before...or maybe it reaffirms their own feelings about the song...or maybe neither, but it doesn't really matter. People also get turned on to a lot of music here that they perhaps wouldn't have otherwise - someone's got a similar taste in music to their own, so chances are that maybe they can compare notes and find a few other things they both like...or not, but it's fun finding out. To me all of that is of value because I think music itself is of great value, for all the reasons that are demonstrated here daily: it moves, illuminates, thrills, touches, transforms people, often in myriad, unexplainable ways within the space of a single song. To me that's far, far from meaningless, and talking about it with others of similar inclination can be one way of acknowledging and celebrating that. As stated, that's just what I get out of it. As I'm sure you noticed things can sometimes lean towards rough-and-tumble around here too, which is where I bow out, for all the reasons in my last post. Some folks find that sort of thing bracing and fun, and more power to them if they do, though I've also seen more than a few such contretemps end in flame wars and one or both people leaving the board. As with the critical canon-building above, such debate can sometimes result in a rough consensus which, again, can perhaps turn on some folks to something they hadn't heard before, which is great. But taking it one step further and saying this is what's good and if you don't like it you're wrong, feels, once again, like flat-out egomania with a side of bullying. Lastly, IMO, if you think "Umbrella" is a terrific song, if it touches something in you, even in just a surfacey way, then I don't think there has to be any more to it than that. For you, and all the other people who like it, it's a terrific song that you respond to. For me, arriving at the conclusion that I could just completely like what I liked without having to defer to some inner censor or somebody who asserted they knew more about it than me wasn't a dilemma, it was a huge relief. Even giving the finger to my beloved R. Christgau, (who's turned me on to hundreds of great albums but who still sometimes tries to float the idea that his opinions are more than opinions) felt mighty good... Whew, very tired now... | ||
| David Gagen Member Username: David_g Post Number: 310 Registered: 02-2007 |
Good music moves and transforms and amazes the individual, and endures as a result. Like poetry and art etc it can resist all attempts to compartmentalize and pull apart. And yet I try and find a reason why I like what i like. Why is that? From Aristotle to Dialectic, we feel a need to find similarities and opposites. Still it resists all our efforts!! Incredible | ||
| Geoff Holmes Member Username: Geoff Post Number: 688 Registered: 05-2005 |
Did I hear a Beatles argument Victor???????? (Tee Hee!) Liberal politics - bound to fail and not deliver? I would say Victor that the Right wing (they actually ARE the "Liberal party" here in Australia) fails to deliver in spades ALL THE TIME. They fail to deliver compassion in bucket loads and are always pandering to the less noble traits of greed and fear. As with the Paul verses John argument, I'm firmly of the opinion that they needed each other as much as each other. Paul needed John to to "compete with" (being extremely competitive and ambitious) and also for John to say "No, that's too cheesy" etc. John needed Paul to compete with to produce the most memorable melodies and be more of a "musician". Paul AND John had WAY too many "yes" men (and women) to tell them that they could do better after the Beatles split. You only have to look at what a tight, GREAT selection of songs that was "Chaos and Creation in the backyard" for proof of my argument. Nigel Godrich kept saying "NO" to Paul and the result is arguable his best (apart from "Promise to you girl" - daggy in a bad way!). | ||
| cosmo vitelli Member Username: Cosmo Post Number: 313 Registered: 05-2005 |
Blimey I seem to have wandered in to pseuds corner by mistake | ||
| Victor Edwin Prose Member Username: Victor_prose Post Number: 57 Registered: 04-2009 |
Good stuff Allen, and I'll tell you, giving the finger to RC has been damn hard for me as well; I'm sure I haven't done it as forcefully as you have. He's just so difficult to decry; everything is so aptly justified, every recommendation so unexpectedly spot-on and to-my-tastes. But statistically he HAS to be wrong somewhere. Not enough recs for albums by melodic Europeans bearing guitars? Or are there just not that many good ones? I wish hip-hop and world came as naturally to me as they did to him, but I've managed to vault over a few initial barriers without much effort - love Franco & Rochereau, Etoile de Dakar, all that friggin' rap. (What a shallow fool I sound like. Or is that all the time?) Re: David -- yeah!! Re: Geoff, you're right on about the right wing, and for the record, I AM a diehard lefty all the way. Though IMHO Chaos & Creation isn't a quarter the record Memory Almost Full is. I like "How Kind of You", but for me it's two career w*nkers w*nking (vowel there isn't i, didn't realize I couldn't use that term), albeit more informed by each others' masturbatory technique. But Memory Almost Full! "Ever Present Past"! "Nod Your Head"! Macca thinking, or at least trying to! (Blast, Allen, those are Xgau's pick hits for the record, aren't they?) Re: cosmo -- How'zit goin? | ||
| Geoff Holmes Member Username: Geoff Post Number: 689 Registered: 05-2005 |
STRONGLY disagree Victor!!!!! I think Paul could have written "Follow me" in 1966 it's so good! Did you know that the "Memory" songs were rejects from "Chaos"? I'd have to concur with Mr Godrich on that. I guess to each his own. With David Bowie, I like Hunky Dory but find much of his stuff too arch and "musical theatre". For me he's a bit like the Stones - I love the singles but find most(not all) of the albums a little on the tedious side. The Angie Bowie book about David I stopped reading as she started to "prey" on schoolgirls. Their whole lifestyle seemed to be one of "shock" to be "seen" without any yearning for any self meaning outside of instant, vain gratification. Pointless. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 740 Registered: 10-2008 |
blimey geoff, and heres me thinking you would prefer the instrumentals from heroes and hate hunky dory ;-) oh, and feel free to start a beatles thread with victor, at least i'll know to avoid it!!! | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1854 Registered: 01-2005 |
I'm glad David survived all the excesses and survived to clean up his act. I never explored any of his albums post Let's Dance although it's somewhat perplexing that he never came out without another stunner after Scary Monsters. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 1494 Registered: 08-2006 |
I think it's hard for musical chameleons like Bowie to keep making great records into advanced artistic maturity. So much of what he did - and I don't mean this as a slam - was informed by what was au courant when he did it. And he did it well all through the 70s. But as you get older, you naturally lose touch with the zeitgeist, and Bowie didn't have a signature style to fall back on, or at least a musical tradition a la Dylan or Neil Young or even the Stones. I'd rather listen to any Stones record post-83 than a Bowie one because, after a point, even Jagger seemed to realize chasing trends wasn't gonna work and the band settled in to do what they always did. I'm not saying they make great records these days, but I'd play "A Bigger Bang" two dozen times before I'd put on "Outside." | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2009 Registered: 10-2004 |
EVERY musician has a shelf life. Exactly when a particular musician "expires" comes down to the subjective taste of the fans, but for the most part, the well is going to run dry at some point. I'm sure some of us would put Bowie's expiration date after Scary Monsters, but for me, I'd say Bowie's inspiration ran out after Let's Dance. Yes, I'm generously giving him Let's Dance, because I actually like some of the songs on that album, but also I like the idea of this mega-selling album signaling the "end" of his "crucial" period. If he had died or retired after that album, I'd have enormous, unwavering respect for him as an artist. But in my opinion, everything he's done since has tainted what could've been an almost flawless legacy. Like Rob says, Bowie changed directions with the wind, and when he no longer seemed to have any new ideas to transform himself, chameleon-like into, his output suffered. He's mainly coasted on the reputation he built up in the 70s. His most diehard supporters love some of his post Let's Dance records. A lot of people went apeshit over Heathen and the one after that, although I thought those albums sounded dull. But enough people (and critics) liked those records to keep Bowie culturally relevant, for better or worse. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 741 Registered: 10-2008 |
it could be worse, he could be paul mccartney whose last decent recording was that'll be the day with the quarrymen. most great artists dry up when they clean up. unless they're robert wyatt. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1855 Registered: 01-2005 |
>most great artists dry up when they clean up. unless they're robert wyatt. Too bad we never got to find that out about Gene and Gram. In jazz, John Coltrane's best music occured after he kicked heroin. Hard to say if the years before he kicked played a part in contracting liver cancer (which was the cause of his death 10 years after he kicked). | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 742 Registered: 10-2008 |
jeff, i've managed to track down the german rca cd of low. got it for £10 (still to be delivered though), which seems a total bargain as these cd's are rarer than hens teeth. heroes is proving more problematic. there is one for sale that i hope is an rca, it just says "withdrawn" in the description. i have emailed the seller asking if it is an rca. if it is, its going for £13. i saw one or two on ebay which are fetching 60 euros and more so that would be a bargain. if it proves not to be an rca there is a 1991 emi version doing the rounds, any idea on the quality of this? | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 743 Registered: 10-2008 |
sorry, forgot to say - the 1991 emi is going for a fiver. i would hope that because it is 19 years old it wont be all compressed and harsh sounding, but you never know. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 1031 Registered: 08-2004 |
Kevin, are the EMI CD's the ones that had bonus tracks? I used to have Heroes, Low & STS with extras. I bought them mid-'90's before the All Saints compilation was released & before the remasters flooded the market in 1999. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 744 Registered: 10-2008 |
jerry , the emi's of low and heroes that i have from 1999 have no extras. the emi of heroes from 1991 has an extra track, joe the lion (2). the emi of low from 1990 has Some Are,All Saints and Sound And Vision as extras | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2010 Registered: 10-2004 |
Kevin - I haven't heard of early 90s EMI pressings, but I bet those use the Rykodisc materings, which were done in '89-'90 to effectively replace the RCAs. But the Rykodisc masterings could cut through glass. Lots of higher frequency boost which gives them a detailed, but shrill/harsh sound. Personally, I'd hold out for RCAs whenever you can. Getting a West German RCA Low for 10 Euros is a steal, by the way! Keep looking and you're bound to come across an RCA Heroes. The "withdrawn" one could be a Rykodisc pressing, since those are technically out of print. Fwiw, I've heard that for Station to Station through Scary Monsters, the West German RCAs are slightly better than the Japan RCAs (and vice versa for the pre-StS albums). Jerry - the late 90s EMI/Virgin pressings don't have bonus tracks - but a limited number of the late 80s Rykodisc pressings *do* have bonus tracks. However, see my comment above about the sound quality of the Rykodiscs. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 1032 Registered: 08-2004 |
They are the CD's I had. 'STS' had a couple of live songs tacked on the end. I think the Rykodisc are the U.S. versions of the European EMI ones. I sold the STS on ebay for around £16 a few years ago. Those OOP discs are worth more regardless of sound quality. I also sold my damaged double disc of 'Stage' for £25, which had "Alabama Song" as an extra. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 746 Registered: 10-2008 |
my rca copy of low came yesterday. played it on headphones and sounds great. the bass is definetely deeper and the album has a warmth that is missing from the remaster. this thread has rekindled my love for side 2 of this album, possibly bowies artistic summit. still no luck on sourcing rca copies of heroes and station to station. i could buy the latter for £20 but thats a bit steep. i just need to bide my time and hope someone sells a copy without realising the scarcity of the rca label cd's | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2011 Registered: 10-2004 |
Kevin, yeah, that warmth of the RCA Low CD is exactly what I'm talking about. And the sound is super detailed to boot. 20 pounds for an RCA Station to Station is about the going rate, but keep your eyes open and you're bound to nab a copy for a bit less. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 748 Registered: 10-2008 |
jeff i was hoping that the rca "s to s" might come down in price what with all the publicity over the deluxe version coming out. i'm not the most patient so i'll probably just spring for the £20, i dont think any collectors would sell for less. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 749 Registered: 10-2008 |
jeff, i know you've no time generally for pitchfork, but check this out. no1 is a peach http://pitchfork.com/features/staff-list s/5932-top-100-albums-of-the-1970s/10/ http://pitchfork.com/features/staff-list s/5932-top-100-albums-of-the-1970s/ | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2012 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yeah, I just might agree with them on their no. 1 choice for the 70s. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2415 Registered: 03-2005 |
Ok, somebody has to do it. Kevin. Tsk tsk tsk. That list has immediately dated tripe like the Cars and Saturday Night Fever and Devo. Van Halen! Really? But . . . it doesn't have either of Magazine's two qualifying albums. Did I accidentally miss the Captain Beefheart entry? That's right; nobody was influenced by him. I don't think I saw Esther Phillips' "From a Whisper to a Scream." Could one of those Bowie or Led Zep (for crissakes!) albums have given way to Colin Blunstone's "One Year?" Or maybe Gene Clark's "White Light?" Did you notice how relatively low Big Star's "3rd" was rated? Well, at least it was there. Neither of the other two were. Nobody was influenced by those records either. I don't remember seeing that old critics' favorite, John Cale's "Paris 1919." No "Grievous Angel" or GP. Was "Broken English" on there? I don't think so. No "Prehistoric Sounds" either; I guess they figured they covered that with "Never Mind the Bollocks" and the two (!) Clash albums. Nice of them to remember Joni Mitchell; wonder if they chose "Blue" because it's the only Joni Mitchell album they have. I have e-mails into the two lifelong Joni Mitchell fans I know. The one who's responded so far answered "that's easy: Hejira." I will check out the Congos' record though. I haven't heard it and it sounds interesting. Even a stopped clock has its moments of accuracy. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2013 Registered: 10-2004 |
Randy - I think you can clearly see why I dislike Pitchfork so much. Most of their staff is younger than I am, so their grasp on the 70s is bound to be limited. But I can't argue with placing Low at #1. But then I also can't argue with them including Van Halen or Devo! | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2014 Registered: 10-2004 |
Glancing over their 70s list again, I find it totally hilarious that they include not one, but *two* 70s Pink Floyd albums. I mean, c'mon! Also I agree that including Mitchell's "Blue" is a cop out. For me, "Hissing of Summer Lawns" is her masterpiece. By the time of "Hejira," her mid-70s sound was getting tired. The absence of any John Cale is alarming, as is the omission of Nick Lowe's "Jesus of Cool/Pure Pop for Now People." Way too much Led Zepp, too, especially given that there appears to be no Sabbath! Pitchfork's grasp of the 70s is like watching 7 year olds trying to read Shakespeare. At least Another Green World made it into the top 10. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2417 Registered: 03-2005 |
Jeff, I think I saw three Pink Floyd records. That's probably my biggest gripe: vastly too many people with more entries than can be justified. Ok, we all like Bowie. But there are too many Bowie entries. Too many Zep for sure. I'd even argue against putting all three of the original Wire albums on there, especially if you're going to totally forget Magazine who, with "Secondhand Daylight," made one of the great (if not the greatest) actual long player of the post-punk era. I'm convinced all the Miles Davis records are on there because he's the only jazz guy they've heard. (Ok, they got one Herbie Hancock.) | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 751 Registered: 10-2008 |
Randy, here's your answers(or some of them anyway) "Of course, at the end of it all, the task of choosing just 100 records to represent the entire decade has meant that there was just not enough room for all of the wonderful (and arguably deserving) albums and bands we'd like to have listed. Among the casualties this time out were: Bruce Springsteen, Bob Marley, Patti Smith, Sticky Fingers , Ornette Coleman, Pere Ubu, Van Morrison, Black Sabbath, "Heroes" , Chic, Queen, Nina Simone, New York Dolls, The Jam, Frank Zappa, Transformer , Curtis Mayfield, The Police, The Damned, Aretha Franklin, Tonight's the Night , The Kinks, Tom Waits, Elton John, Yes, Janis Joplin, Station to Station , Willie Nelson, Cheap Trick, AC/DC, Grateful Dead, Alice Coltrane, Paris 1919 , The Upsetters, Yellow Magic Orchestra, Cecil Taylor, Amon Düül II, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway , Augustus Pablo, Human League, Chi-Lites, Captain Beefheart, No New York , Magazine, The Slits, The B-52's, Durutti Column, Burning Spear, Tangerine Dream, Gene Clark, Françoise Hardy, Magma, Kimono My House , The Adverts, Manuel Göttsching and/or Ash Ra Tempel, Lee Hazlewood, and all of Brazil, including Caetano Veloso." I find that I'm a 50/50 guy when it comes to Pitchfork. They do have some very talented writers amongst their staff, and I think for a relatively young staff,as Jeff points out, that their knowledge of "old" music is quite commendable. Its also worth bearing in mind that the list is now over 6 years old, a veritable age when it comes to music, and it would be interesting to see how much the list would differ if it was compiled today. The writers would be 6 years older, and 6 years more "experienced" in older music. I know that my late 20 through to mid 30's I discovered and loved loads of "old" music that i was either unaware of or thought i would'nt like. On the too much Bowie:- it's interesting to note they omitted heroes and station to station, two albums that i certainly would include in any 70's list. The Congos's album is one of the staple 70's reggae classics, and the music and Perry's production is second to none. You may like me though find the falsetto vocals a bit wearing over a whole album though. I think the top 10 they picked is pretty great,thers no clunkers really(i havent heard the zep album), the rest of it is debatable and we will all have our own gripes, but thats the fun of these lists for me. .... and just for you jeff!! http://pitchfork.com/features/staff-list s/5882-top-100-albums-of-the-1980s/ | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2418 Registered: 03-2005 |
Kevin, I didn't know it was a six year old list. That does mean something. As for their list of people they claim to have intentionally left off I call BS. They just opened an almanac and started listing the names. Nobody would consider the Adverts for the top 100 nor a number of the other people on there. (I like "Crossing the Red Sea" but seriously only T.V. Smith's mother would nominate it as one of the 100 best of the decade.) They just hadn't listened to any of them but wanted to pretend that they had. There was no conceivable excuse for listing multiple entries by the people they used. They were lazy. More likely they were just faking it and don't know crap about many of their listed omitted artists. I don't know crap about a lot of the listed artists either and therefore I wouldn't try to compose such a list. But if I tried to list a 100 best for a decade I would definitely try to avoid multiple listings and certainly never go beyond two entries for one artist. Even the '70s had far too many good things to allow that. Even never been keen on Lee Perry because I'm not a fan of dub at all. I'm actually hoping the Congos' vocals are what do it for me. I did notice when looking on Amazon that the average song length is too long, but we'll see! | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2419 Registered: 03-2005 |
Wow. Look at all the major label dreck on that 80s list, in a decade when the majors were fading fast. "Purple Rain" in the top 100? Really? Are we talking sales or good? I'm sure everyone on this board who looks will notice the absence of Grant, Lindy and Robert's band while all those lowest-common denominator big seller instantly-dated artists get multiple positions. But having been tipped off to how old these lists are I see this one dates from 2002, far too early to do a retrospective on an era. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 752 Registered: 10-2008 |
Randy, you may be right in your assertions about the laziness, but i cant believe that they would have Low at no1 and omit Heroes because they hadnt heard it. Not the best example, but I suspect these guys are far more knowledgable than you think - one thing I think you cant fault Pitchfork writers for is their passion for music. I guess "the rules" for these lists are what determines how the list shapes up. for example, if the writers have to list their 10 favourites of the decade and the points awarded are very high for a writers no1 choice(say 100 pts), reducing in number to his 10th choice (10 pts), it might be enough to gets his no1 in the list if some others have also included it somewhere on their list. I think Uncut use this method. although how the adverts made the list defies most logic! some lists employ the ruling of one artist = one album. i dont go along with this. for example, i would put forward that low and heroes were landmark 70's albums for many music fans(unless you loathed bowie of course), and piss all over the adverts album for example, so if pushed i would plump for the multi album per artist method of voting to preserve the chances of quality winning out. however i do recognise that if you employed the one album only criteria this enhances the chances of magazine or john cale making the list. but then you have the dilemna, is paris 1919 better than both low and heroes? not in my book, fine album though it undoubtedly is. there probably isnt a perfect voting system, although like you suggest maybe two albums per artist could work, i would personally make it 3 mind you! Lee Perry did a lot of dub albums, but he also produced far more vocal tracks/albums. If you are looking for an overview of his production work with other artists throughout the 70s I cannot recommend this new compilation highly enough. There is a lot of crossover with other Perry comps, but if you dont have any this is the place to start, and its cheap. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sipple-Out-Deh-B lack-Years/dp/B003IMERYM http://www.amazon.com/Sipple-Out-Deh-Bes t-Black/dp/B003IMERYM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8 &s=music&qid=1280764094&sr=8-2 http://www.dubvendor.co.uk/lee-scratch-p erry--friends---sipple-out-deh-the-black -ark-years-trojan-2xcd-13860-p.asp | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2015 Registered: 10-2004 |
The 80s list doesn't surprise me quite as much, although it does contain its share of questionable entries. I mean, Trust? Joshua Tree? I think Prince appearing three times is partly generational. People my age and younger grew up in the 80s with Prince in heavy rotation on MTV and the radio, so there's a real nostalgia about him. Ask anyone in their 30s today and they'll probably have *something* positive to say about Prince. Putting Sonic Youth at #1 is predictable, but kind of strange, as I - and a lot of people I know - feel like Sonic Youth has not aged particularly well. With regard to both lists, to be fair, it's entirely possible that several Pitchfork writers *did* include Heroes and Magazine for the 70s and the Go-Betweens for the 80s, but like Kevin mentions, they seem to tally the albums that get the most mentions out of everyone's top 10 lists. While I do question Pitchfork's knowledge in some areas (sometimes the *way* they write about certain records from the 70s or 80s sounds as if they don't understand them), ultimately a lot of it is going to come down to taste. | ||
| David Gagen Member Username: David_g Post Number: 311 Registered: 02-2007 |
Patti Smith's "Horses" absent from original list? Mayb dated a bit now, but at time huge album for me. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 753 Registered: 10-2008 |
ive spent the last 30 years trying to "get" horses. its a lost cause i reckon. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2016 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'll never "get" Patti Smith, but I know plenty of people who do. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1867 Registered: 01-2005 |
I won't mention the misses that Randy, Kevin, Jeff and David already brought up. However I didn't see Two Sevens Clash, Allman Brothers - At Fillmore East, Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs, The Pretty Things - Parachute, Neu '75, Captain Beyond - Captain Beyond (give it a chance, it's a great album), Richard and Linda Thompson, Steely Dan or Warren Zevon. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 754 Registered: 10-2008 |
found station to station on rca (allegedly) for £10 inc p+p from the usa. its an amazon marketplace seller(rockaway records), cant believe they are selling it for this knockdown price and it will probably be a rykodisc when it arrives. estimated delivery october 4th - dont they have planes in america these days!! | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1868 Registered: 01-2005 |
Kevin and Jeff, Would you say Patti Smith was an aquired taste in the mid 70's as much as Lene Lovich was from 1979-early 80's or nowdays Joanne Newsom? Horses is okay, but I certainly can't rank it up there with Broken English. I'm glad she took good care of Fred for all those years. | ||
| David Gagen Member Username: David_g Post Number: 312 Registered: 02-2007 |
Easter is better album IMO. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1850 Registered: 09-2006 |
Patti took a number of years to kick in for me, but when she did it was bigtime...I think her stuff is rich and thrilling. Right now I'm reading her beautifully written memoir of her friendship/partnership with Robert Mapplethorpe. | ||
| David Gagen Member Username: David_g Post Number: 313 Registered: 02-2007 |
Brilliant memoir isnt it Allen. As a huge Patti Smith fan i would be the first to admit that some of her stuff appears a tad pretentious but her best is fkn brilliant. My fav is Easter but Horses exploded onto scene in 1974 (I think) and is prob a few years ahead of its time and therefore historically more significant i think. | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 577 Registered: 04-2005 |
To 'get' Patti Smith, just find her 1976 Old Grey Whistle Test TV appearance on YouTube. I can't imagine what that must have been like to see at the time (when progressive rock was still top dog). And women were allowed to be acoustic singer/songwriters and that was about all. Or just go and see her live. My 14 son saw her a few weeks and understood her energy and inspiration straight away. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 755 Registered: 10-2008 |
ah pretentious, thats it. now i remember why i dislike her and her music. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 1497 Registered: 08-2006 |
I saw her play a show at an outdoor festival here maybe 10 years ago and, while I was already a fan, I can only describe the show as shamanistic. During one tune she went into this invocation about having been born in Chicago. If that sound pedestrian, by the time she returned to the song I think the entire crowd had the chills. I don't disagree that her purposeful artiness sometimes scrapes up on the edge of pretentiousness, and some of her records are pretty damn uneven, but I think she's a classic. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2017 Registered: 10-2004 |
I grew up hearing Patti Smith in the house. My step-dad was really into her, had all her records, played them regularly. He got me into a lot of great music, but Patti Smith just never clicked for me. To attempt to answer Michael's question - I never found Lene Lovich an acquired tatse, but I loathe Joanna Newsom (and might hate Cocorosie even more!). As for Patti Smith, she doesn't but me the way Ms. Newsome does; it's more that her music just doesn't do much for me personally. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1869 Registered: 01-2005 |
Patti never grabbed me and I bet I've only played Horses a half dozen times. I thought about getting Easter a couple of times but never pulled the trigger on it. I've got Lene's first two albums and the New Toy ep on vinyl. She seemed to fit the times more than being an aquired taste. Her quirky singing hasn't aged well and she never moved to a more mature style like Kate Bush did. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2018 Registered: 10-2004 |
Michael - I agree about Lene Lovich. She had a few great singles (Lucky Number, New Toy), but seemed to get permanently stuck in an artistic cul-de-sac pretty quickly. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1851 Registered: 09-2006 |
Agreed, wonderful book, David. What comes through, even more than on her records, is an immense amount of spirit, intelligence and (especially) heart...again and again I'm surprised to find myself with a little clutch in my throat from a description of some moment. And, IMO, I'd say she earns what pretensions she's got. She was a poet and an artist with a capital 'A' long before she took on rock and roll, and it's who she truly is, through and through. She's managed to integrate the two worlds more organically, consistently and, again, thrillingly (I'd agree on 'shamanistic,' Rob) than few before or since. | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1852 Registered: 09-2006 |
Ain't it about time to start Bowie Thread II? | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2019 Registered: 10-2004 |
'Twas a shame that her song wasn't about Tom Verlaine Smith and the guitarist/keyboardist from Blue Oyster Cult were an item for a few years, and Smith contributed some lyrics to a few BOC songs. Being a fan of BOC's darker, pre-commercial phase, I always thought that was mildly interesting. | ||
| Rob Brookman Member Username: Rob_b Post Number: 1498 Registered: 08-2006 |
But I also understand why people like Jeff don't click with her. I can't put my finger on it, but it has something to do with the fact she's not a musician first and foremost. I think most of what she does yokes the music to the words, not the other way around, and, I don't know why, but that makes a difference. "Dream of Life" was always one of my favorites of hers, I think because Fred "Sonic" Smith kind of art directed the music. The songs sounded like songs instead of chants. That said, I like the chants, too, but the musical quality of her output can vary pretty widely for someone whose work I respect so much. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 756 Registered: 10-2008 |
allen - good idea. the floors all yours. the rest of you, start your own feckin patti smith thread!! | ||
| Allen Belz Member Username: Abpositive Post Number: 1853 Registered: 09-2006 |
Kevin, part of my comment was humorously directed at the fact that this thread has, in a very short time, gotten as long as a What Are You Listening To. And with my long-winded debates with Victor, etc. I'm as guilty as any of hijacking the thread. But back to Bowie, and artists like him: my wife and I were watching a (mostly excellent) DVD compilation of performances from The Old Grey Whistle Test last night, and a clip of early Roxy Music brought on a brief discussion about artificiality and, yes, pretension. What I felt the clip conveyed very well was that even though the celebration of 'surface' was a large part of what it was about, the music and energy of the performance also conveyed a great deal of passion. Which is the way I feel about a lot of Bowie's work at it's best. It's long been my feeling that if one is compelled to actually creat and put one's music/film/writing/etc. out there in the world, that at the core of that drive is something very human and it's done with a great deal of love, no matter how many layers of flash and irony are laid on top of it. I also think that Bowie has had some fine songs where his heart was more on his sleeve, "Word on a Wing" being a lovely example. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2420 Registered: 03-2005 |
I think Rob's explanation is a good one for why Patti Smith never really grabbed me. I do remember seeing a low budget film of Mapplethorpe getting his nipples pierced (when that was big deal!) and Smith was in the film. I actually saw Lene Lovich do a couple of gigs way back when. I thought she was so great. Yep, definitely an act that wore out its welcome. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 757 Registered: 10-2008 |
have went on a bowie splurge to replace the vinyl i purchased in the late 90's, most of which was bought in the one store and the vinyl was in poor condition apart from young americans. so i have purchased the following, in allegedly near mint condition, from various sellers: aladdin sane, station to station, heroes,lodger and scary monsters. the most paid was £5 for station to station, the least was £1 for scary monsters. these guys obviously make their money from the extravagant postal charges, one guy charged £3.40, the average price of postage was £3. i bought them all via the excellent discogs site which i have used on many occasions, loads of goodies to be found there i reckon. http://www.discogs.com/ | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2020 Registered: 10-2004 |
Kevin - you've bought stuff on Discogs? I've never done that, wasn't sure how legit or sketchy it was. So you experiences have been positive then? It'd be nice to find an alternative from the usual suspects - ebay, Amazon, Gemm, etc... | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 758 Registered: 10-2008 |
never had a problem jeff. mostly bought from uk sellers but have bought a few from europe. i think its as legit as gemm and netsounds etc at least, although with ebay and amazon you would have their clout behind you should you hit problems i guess. stick to the sellers with good ratings and you cant go wrong. this thread is actually costing me money :-) i just sprung for a new cartridge for my record deck - £110. not the priciest by any stretch of the imagination but not cheap either. added to the bowie cd's and the vinyl i reckon i've spent north of £150!! | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 764 Registered: 10-2008 |
i got 4 of the 5 bowie albums delivered yesterday. still waiting for heroes. the copy of aladdin sane is unlistenable and was described as "near mint" - a crackling noise is horrendously loud between tracks, and is clearly evident even during the loud songs. bizarrely, when you look at the vinyl it looks pristine - never seen anything like it. i have fired off a message to the seller. station to station and lodger sound great and come as advertised, scary monsters has some snap, crackle and pop but is bearable. the aladdin sane is a 1981 german import with black rca label, the scary monsters is also black rca label but i'm sure by 1980 the rca orange label had been superceded by the black. the station to station and lodger both have orange rca labels. one annoying thing though was that apart from station to station, none of the albums had inserts. given that the records and sleeves were in generally great nick(apart from aladdin sane) i find this a bit strange, i know lodger had an insert as it is a gatefold sleeve and there is one opening for the record, the other opening is bare and is where the insert should be. from memory scary monsters definetely had an insert - maybe jeff can confirm? given the relatively cheap outlay i am on the whole satisfied, lets see what heroes is like when it arrives. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2426 Registered: 03-2005 |
"a crackling noise is horrendously loud between tracks, and is clearly evident even during the loud songs. bizarrely, when you look at the vinyl it looks pristine." I'll bet he washed the record in the sink. I'm not kidding. Those are hard water deposits you're hearing. I remembering trying that out many years ago and discovering that what I'd get is a super clean looking record that had a huge amount of surface noise. I have no idea whether you can clear it out using an proper record washing product. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 766 Registered: 10-2008 |
yeah, i thought as much too randy. maybe one thing to be wary of when buying 2nd hand vinyl is to stay away from record shops(as in this guys case)and stick with regular music lovers who have probably kept their lp's in better nick. to be honest its dodgy vinyl that puts me off playing lp's rather than cd's. i do prefer lp's to cd's - for one thing it meant it was easier to hear an album all the way through, you played side 1 and then flipped it over, or played side 2 the next time. how many times have you played a cd up till track 5 or 6, taken it off and resumed from track 6 or 7 the next time - next to never in my case. i still have some albums that i like and i maybe have never heard the last 2 or 3 tracks of the cd. up till the 80's vinyl was the kingpin for me(i never liked cassettes) and i could put up with flaws because it was what we had become attuned to. plus vinyl was so much better quality then and was always bought brand new. however, these days the vinyl is poorer quality, and second hand market is hit and miss. i guess in this high paced modern era vinyl is just too much high maintenance, and overall probably costs more to buy, and if you include stylus replacement | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2024 Registered: 10-2004 |
Randy - My theory is that said LP could have been played a few times with a super cheap or totally knackered stylus. That would totally destroy the grooves of an LP without producing any visible scratches or scuffs. When I was a teenager I had a friend who would destroy my LPs with his crappy turntable. When I realized what was happening, I stopped loaning him my records. I've been washing my LPs for years with lukewarm tap water and a soft cotton cloth, and doing that has never made my LPs crackly. Granted, I only use a little bit of water, and tap water is going to have different levels of sediment in different areas. But someone could've used any number of abrasive cleaning fluids that would've destroyed an LP. I've also heard of people making LPs shiny and "new" by putting Armour All on them! Kevin - Original pressings of Scary Monsters had an inner sleeve with lyrics on it. Low definitely had an insert that listed all the credits for each song. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1883 Registered: 01-2005 |
Kevin, Do you have any of the new AUDIOPHILE VINYL albums that use half speed mastering and are made from special formulated virgin vinyl and are marked either 180 grams or 200 grams of measured weight? The 200 gram weight vinyl albums are suppossed to have virtually no surface noise and sonically superior dynamics. I bet those are pretty pricey! | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 769 Registered: 10-2008 |
Michael , i have maybe half a dozen or so 180g vinyl. the last 2 i bought were unknown pleasures and closer by joy division. mostly sounds great, but closer has 2 or 3 tracks that have a few clicks and pops here and there, and that has been since the very first play. | ||
| Andrew Kerr Member Username: Andrew_k Post Number: 580 Registered: 04-2005 |
Re the quality of vinyl, I remember reading how EMI used to use only virgin vinyl for pressing classical releases and everything else got recycled vinyl. Bit of a cheek when you consider the company was still afloat because of the enormous sales of the Fab Four. The last time I bought vinyl on release was Billy Bragg's 'Don't Try This at Home'. After trying about 5 copies to find one that wasn't warped or off-centred I gave in and bought the CD. The records were practically like flexi-discs (in terms of the quantity of vinyl) and I am sure that the record industry deliberately used progressively less and less in their manufacturing process to force us to buy CDs. An album from the 60s feels about double the weight. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2431 Registered: 03-2005 |
Jeff, you must have good water up there. I used to do it with Fresno water, probably loaded with ag chemicals. But I also used a LOT of water. I'd put it under the tap and then use a soft cloth to wash it. I ended up with a great looking record and a crapload of surface noise every time. I wouldn't even try it in Los Angeles. The tap water we have here is notorious among old car people for its tendency to dissolve aluminum castings! Love the Armorall idea! I wonder how far you could get before the stylus was too crapped up to track--thirty seconds? | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1884 Registered: 01-2005 |
I am taking my vintage 1974 Dual 701 turntable in for repair and new Moster Wire plugs and ground wire upgrade including a new solid walnut base with a sturdy masonite deck. The 701 is a very quiet turntable and has a EDS1000 motor that is an overkill on an orignally priced $400.00 turntable. The EDS1000 motor is even used to repair uber expensive Goldmund turntables, so I'm thinking it's worth repairing and upgrading. | ||
| frank bascombe Member Username: Frankb Post Number: 472 Registered: 01-2007 |
Now I know why my After the Goldrush sounds so crap, second hand and washed in London water, couldn't believe how bad it was when I dug it out a few years ago. I've buy a few vinyl LPs each year and been quite happy but buy them from Diverse Vinyl in South Wales.Very friendly and good service. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2027 Registered: 10-2004 |
Randy, I suppose if you used tons of water, as if you were washing a plate, it might not be so good on the vinyl. I basically dab the cloth in water, so I don't use much. For what it's worth, audiophiles typically create solutions for cleaning vinyl that are basically a mixture of alcohol and water. I've heard that's essentially what the recording cleaning fluid you can buy in the store is. Kevin - Heroes had an insert, too. Check this out: http://cgi.ebay.com/DAVID-BOWIE-HEROES-1 st-PRESS-1977-RCA-LP-INSERT-/37041802076 0?pt=UK_Records My Heroes is an early US pressing that I got 2nd hand about 20 years ago, and it didn't come with an insert. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 772 Registered: 10-2008 |
My Station to Station RCA cd came yesterday. So much for expected delivery of Oct 04 - not that I'm complaining, and to charge me £10 inc postage means the guy didnt know what he was sitting on. These RCA cd's of mid 70s Bowie regularly go for £40 or £50. Played it last night on headphones, definetely less harsh sounding than the EMI remasters. I had to turn the volume right up, which is always a good sign, modern cd's are so loud the volume level is normally at 3 or 4!! I just need Heroes and Lodger and I'll be happy, these are much trickier to find by the looks of it. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2031 Registered: 10-2004 |
Kevin, you've been having some pretty good luck tracking down those RCAs (at a decent price, I might add). Are yours West German pressings? You can tell by looking at the colors of the horizontal bands on the spine: WG pressings are shades of blue, Japan for US pressings are shades of red. The reason I ask is because some people claim the WG pressings of Station to Station through Scary Monsters are slightly superior, while also claiming that the Japan for US pressings of the pre-StS CDs are slightly better. I'm still on the hunt for Heroes, Scary Monsters, and Station to Station. Ebay is *not* the place to look for these things - the prices are insane. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 773 Registered: 10-2008 |
jeff, low is a german pressing, station to station is japanese. on prices, i have been lucky. i bartered the low seller down to £10, and the s to s seller was unbelievably selling it for £10. both were amazon marketplace sellers, my guess is they didnt really know what they had, albeit they knew rca cd's were harder to find than the remasters | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1891 Registered: 01-2005 |
With the first Bowie album now available as a 2 CD Deluxe Edition, I thinking that the subsequent essential albums will probably get the same treatment over the next half dozen years or so. | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 1037 Registered: 08-2004 |
They've already released 30th anniversary doubles of Ziggy, Aladdin Sane, Diamond Dogs & an expanded Young Americans. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 776 Registered: 10-2008 |
jerry how uncynical of you!! prepare for 40th anniversary editions in the next 2 or 3 years. along the lines of the upcoming s to s package i reckon. | ||
| Michael Bachman Member Username: Michael_bachman Post Number: 1893 Registered: 01-2005 |
Jerry, Right you are. I was refering to a Delxue Edition like this with the outer sleeve: http://www.amazon.com/David-Bowie-2-CD-D eluxe/dp/B002W1GCX4/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s =music&qid=1281715141&sr=1-8 | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 1038 Registered: 08-2004 |
I see. The 30th anniversary editions weren't deluxe enough. I'll hang on for the Golden Jubilee releases! | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2036 Registered: 10-2004 |
Just nabbed an RCA Scary Monsters at Amoeba for $20. Now all I need are Heroes, StS, and TMWSTW, and I'll be content. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 780 Registered: 10-2008 |
nice one jeff, the equivalent of £13. just a hunch, but i think that you will find,like me, that heroes will be the hardest to pin down. best of luck. i have a look every few days online hoping it will turn up | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 781 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeff, found a couple of StoS RCA cd's. Pretty cheap in the current market, no doubt if you sat tight you would eventually get them slightly cheaper, but not much i wouldnt reckon http://www.discogs.com/sell/list?release _id=1026021&ev=rb | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 782 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hopefully StoS on RCA will become easier to track down once the deluxe version comes out next month,I still cant believe I picked mine up for a tenner recently.I'm sure that includes a CD of the album from the RCA master tapes amongst various other bibs and bobs that probably only appeal to uber Bowie fans who are also extremely rich! | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2038 Registered: 10-2004 |
Kevin, yeah, the "super deluxe" StoS does include an RCA master, which is cool but also interesting because it's the first time anyone from the Bowie camp has actually given any indication that maybe those RCAs weren't so bad after all. Back in the 80s, Bowie had publicly bad-mouthed them, especially in the time leading up to the Rykodisc reissues in '89-90. But it's become pretty unanimous among hardcore Bowie fans that the RCAs sound the best, so maybe Bowie is finally conceding. It's an incredibly nice looking package, by the way, but there's just no way I'd shell out that much money for it. I'm sure that rabid Bowie obsessives with high/disposable incomes are shitting themselves with delight! I just wish they'd do single-disc reissues of the RCA masters and be done with it! | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 790 Registered: 10-2008 |
Have managed to snag the RCA copy of Hunky Dory for just over £10, talked the guy down from £14 which would still have been a bargain for an RCA disc I guess. I just need to get Heroes,Ziggy,Aladdin,Lodger and Diamond Dogs and I'll be happy, not interested in Space Oddity,TMWSTW, Young Americans - if Scary Monsters appeared for a tenner I would spring for it but wouldnt pay any more. Regarding the upcoming reissue of Station to Station, I assumed that you could only get the RCA version with the super mega deluxe version, but apparently the cheapo version is sourced from the original analogue master tapes - wonder if this means they will master it similar to the original or if they will still ruin it by making it over compressed and too loud? | ||
| Jerry Clark Member Username: Jerry Post Number: 1045 Registered: 08-2004 |
Wow! http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN /B003UTUQ3O/emi-cat-21/ref=nosim This is a fine album, but...! | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 818 Registered: 10-2008 |
have bagged the rca cd of heroes for just under £20 via a seller on amazon. he assures me it is the rca copy, the reason i asked him is because i have seen so many alleged rca cd's advertised on amazon and when you question the seller they invariably reply"oh, its actually on ryko/virgin/emi blah blah blah" this guy obviously doesnt realise what he's sitting on to sell it for £20, i've never seen it go cheaper than $60/£45 | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 821 Registered: 10-2008 |
bloody hell, this thread is costing me a fortune! have bagged ziggy and aladdin on rca for £30 each, which is still a lot less than they sometimes go for on ebay. i've had much better luck on amazon than ebay, maybe nobody thinks to look on amazon! the ziggy is in immaculate condition for a cd 25 years old - i've seen brand new releases from this year in worse condition, and it goes without saying it sounds far superior to current cd's - as close to the sound of vinyl as i've heard in aeons. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 822 Registered: 10-2008 |
Aladdin Sane came this morning - jesus this sounds amazing compared to the 30th anniversary that came out in '03. This is probably Bowies most guitar heavy album and that is potentially a scenario for shrill tinny noise assault, but it just sounds fantastic. looks like i am a rival for your geek crown jeff :-) - but like yourself i just love a great sounding record. saying that, one of my favourite records is dragnet by the fall, and that sounds like it was recorded in a toilet, or 100 ft down a well. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 825 Registered: 10-2008 |
heroes came today, its like listening to a new mix altogether. an organ line which i'd never previously picked up on in neukoln, the bass much more prominent on secret life of arabia. bowies unhinged screaming vocal on the second half of heroes (the song) sounds much better now,just like it sounds in the vinyl, rather than the tinny screechy mess of the virgin remaster. so i now have heroes,station to station, fame and fashion compilation on rca japan. hunky dory,ziggy,aladdin sane,young americans and low on german rca. just diamond dogs, lodger and scary monsters to go. there is apparently an sacd of scary monsters, any word on the quality of this jeff? | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2053 Registered: 10-2004 |
Nice job, Kevin. Would you say you found most of these on Amazon? As for SACD of Scary Monsters, I really haven't heard much about it, nor have I heard it. I do know that most people view the RCA as the definitive version. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 826 Registered: 10-2008 |
jeff - half and half amazon and ebay, with maybe a slight edge on amazon i bought ziggy and young americans via a german girl called kate on ebay. she has been a star, and says she reckons she can source diamond dogs,lodger and scary monsters for me through her contacts. | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2472 Registered: 03-2005 |
Somebody in Deutschland is laughing about the Scottish git who keeps paying too much for these crappy old Bowie CDs. Meanwhile, an Amazon Marketplace shipment went awry for me. I certainly never ordered a copy of Vince Guaraldi's "A Charlie Brown Christmas" but here it is in my mail! | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2054 Registered: 10-2004 |
Ha, that's a damn fine record though, Randy, even if it got to you by mistake! | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 827 Registered: 10-2008 |
and a few in america as well randy :-) trust me, apart from a few real bargains(low, s to s), every time i've hit that "buy" button i've thought "what the hell are you doing!!". unfortunately, i've got that scottish/irish determination about me which means that when i set out to do something like this i dont do it by half measures and wont rest till i have got them all!! and i'm doing my bit for the german economy!! my only consolation is that although i've paid £30 for one or two of these, believe me, in relative terms they've been bargains - some of the prices being asked for, and paid out, are regularly double this and more on ebay. and for once the hype is right, they do sound terrific!! | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2058 Registered: 10-2004 |
Listening to Hunky Dory right now, which I haven't listened to in ages (probably since the 90s). What a half-baked, kind of boring, kind of self-indulgent album this is. I really don't get the appeal it holds for so many. Don't get me wrong, Life on Mars is an absolutely brilliant track (the definite standout), and a few others are at least decent (like Kooks, Queen Bitch, Changes), but overall, kind of a disappointment coming off the heels of TMWSTW. Personally, after TMWSTW, I don't think Bowie made another truly good album until Aladdin Sane. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 834 Registered: 10-2008 |
jeff, i was a teenager (just) when i heard hunky dory for the first time, by my reckoning about 1973 or maybe 1974. bowie was mega at the time and i just devoured hunky dory, ziggy and aladdin sane. hunky dory was my favourite. the rock landscape has changed immensely since those early 70's days so i can fully understand why many people would find hunky dory a bit boring and even bland. i think its one of the bowie albums very much of its time, and hasnt aged as well as some of the others. but because i "lived bowie" through that period its maybe why it meant so much to me. it was also one of the albums that shaped me musically and set me on the road to discover lou reed, the velvets, iggy and the new york dolls. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 840 Registered: 10-2008 |
just found the bargain of the year on ebay, and there are still loads left if anybody is unterested. the 3xcd box set reissue of bowie's station to station is available on ebay for £6.74. the cheapest i have seen it is amazon for £12.99, other retailers are £13.99 and other ebay sellers between £15 and £20. the seller looks to be a retailer with a high feedback score so should be kosher!! claims to have more than 10 available - get in there !! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DAVID-BOWIE-Statio n-Station-Special-Edition-Box-/150486267 045?pt=UK_CDsDVDs_CDs_CDs_GL&hash=item23 09ae34a5#ht_500wt_928 | ||
| fsh Member Username: Fsh Post Number: 219 Registered: 05-2005 |
well it must have been an error 'cause it's £17.50 now. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 841 Registered: 10-2008 |
i knew it was too good to be true. they've either been inundated with orders since i posted this and thought "uh oh somethings up", a bit like when bookmakers see a trend with a heavily backed horse, and they've decided to get greedy. or somebody's cocked up. probably the latter :-) | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 842 Registered: 10-2008 |
check the history, where it says three sold - all £6.74 http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ?ViewBidsLogin&item=150486267045 | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 843 Registered: 10-2008 |
and pitchfork love it http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/1468 7-station-to-station-deluxe-edition/ | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 942 Registered: 10-2008 |
finally got my hands on a west german rca copy of scary monsters. sounds great to me!! just need lodger and diamond dogs to complete the set. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2193 Registered: 10-2004 |
I recently read "Bowie in Berlin," by Jerome Seabrook. It's a decent book, overall, but I learned some interesting things about Lodger. -"Fantastic Voyage" and "Boys Keep Swinging" are, compositionally, the same song. FV was written first, and for "Boys Keep Swinging," the band switched instruments (guitarist Carlos Alomar switched to drums, the drummer switched to bass, etc... Only Belew stayed on his instrument, guitar) to reinterpret the song with a more raucous and garagey feel. So, both songs share the same basic chord progression, but were given radically different arrangements and vocals/lyrics. Hearing these songs now, it's funny that I never picked up on this. -"Move On" is basically "All The Young Dudes" backwards. Bowie and Visconti were reportedly listening to a master reel of "Dudes" and accidentally played it backwards. They liked it so much that they turned it into its own song. -Eno kind of lost interest in the project because some of his more radical ideas were met with resistance. As a result, he wasn't around for mixing, and wasn't around for some of the recording process. At the time, Eno's mindset was very much on the path that would ultimately lead him to co-create Remain in Light and Life in the Bush of Ghosts with David Byrne. Eno wanted to develop and use some of these techniques (radical editing and reassembling of extended jams to create new songs) on Lodger but Bowie was apparently bent on making a more conventional record. So, given that "Red Money" is "Sister Moonlight" (from The Idiot), that two songs are the basically the same, that another is a much older song done backwards, and that "Yassassin" is built around the bass part from "Funky Kingston," it seems as if Bowie wasn't exactly flush with new ideas when it came time to make Lodger. It's also interesting to ponder how Lodger might have turned out had Eno's input been better received. Not that any of this should keep anyone from enjoying the album, but I thought it was kind of interesting. I actually like Lodger now a little more than I used to, but I still think that out of the run of albums from Station to Station through Scary Monsters, Lodger is the weakest. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 1219 Registered: 10-2008 |
thanks jeff, interesting stuff. i did know about the band switching instruments for boyskeep swinging, but didnt know it was basically the same song as fantastic voyage. i'm glad belew stayed on guitar though, his solo outro at the end of boys keep swinging is the highlight of the album for me. frustratingly for me, lodger is the only rca cd i need to complete my collection of hunky dory through to scary monsters. i would have thought this might have been one of the easiest to find, and low and heroes would be scarce, but the opposite has been the case. | ||
| Jeff Whiteaker Member Username: Jeff_whiteaker Post Number: 2194 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yeah, I haven't seen one single RCA Lodger CD either. I wonder if fewer of them were pressed, for whatever reason? The RCA CD that I see the most is Station to Station. IIRC, StS sold more copies when it was released than Lodger (and Low and Heroes, for that matter), so I wonder if RCA simply pressed more copies of the more popular albums. The only two I'd really like to track down are Heroes and TMWSTW. And yes, Belew's guitar on "Boys" is awesome. In fact, I really like his playing on the entire record. It's Frippish but not overly so. It wasn't surprising that Belew wound up playing in King Crimson. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 1773 Registered: 10-2008 |
Listening to BBC6 this afternoon at work and Red Sails from Lodger was played. The DJ stated that Lodger was one of Bowies favourites of his own albums, the other being Diamond Dogs. I like both, but am surprised that Bowie thinks this. Maybe he cant remember making S to S, Low and Heroes. | ||
| Pádraig Collins Member Username: Pádraig_collins Post Number: 4512 Registered: 05-2005 |
Clearly he's forgotten Tin Machine. | ||
| skulldisco Member Username: Skulldisco Post Number: 1903 Registered: 10-2008 |
http://thequietus.com/articles/09335-dav id-bowie-the-rise-fall-of-ziggy-stardust -review | ||
| Randy Adams Member Username: Randy_adams Post Number: 2985 Registered: 03-2005 |
Thanks, Kevin. What a ride! And I'm not even a fan of the Ziggy period. It seems the Quietus is home to the best pop music journalism now. | ||
| David Gagen Member Username: David_g Post Number: 391 Registered: 02-2007 |
Very Interesting piece. Great music journalism, agree Randy. |